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To: LeGrande
I tried to explain this before, but you didn't want to get into it. At dawn the light from the Sun is preceding the Sun. At some point the light that we see from the Sun is aligned with its position, then the light that we see starts to lag the Suns position.

Looks like you're talking about an apparent angular rate -- not an apparent angular displacement at any given instant in time...!

You don't seem to understand what Stellar Aberration is at all. It has almost nothing to do with the Earths velocity.

You're saying that Stellar Aberration has almost nothing to do with the Earth's velocity? I think you're wrong on that one. WP says "At the instant of any observation of an object, the apparent position of the object is displaced from its true position by an amount which depends upon the transverse component of the velocity of the observer, with respect to the vector of the incoming beam of light." Are you saying that they're wrong? I mean they could be -- but is that what you're saying? this article also agrees with WP and even provides formulas which do not include the sun-earth distance. Stellar aberration is not influenced by the distance to earth from sun, but only by the observer's transverse velocity at the time of observation -- compared to the object being observed. Are you saying that these sources are wrong? There are lots more that agree with them. Are you saying they are all wrong?

Said mrjesse: Well how can this be? First of all, as you know, Stellar Aberration, which is caused by the observer's transverse velocity, causes the apparent position of the object being observed to be ahead (in relation to the observer's direction) of where the object actually us. Remember, driving in the falling snow - the snowflakes appear to come from in front of you.
replied LeGrande: That is an argument I gave you but you rejected it. I am glad to see you now trying to incorporate it, it gives me hope that you aren't entirely a lost cause : )


No, the falling rain was an argument that you gave for your alleged 2.1 degrees which you said was a function of the rate of earth's rotation of 2.1 degrees in the 8.3 minutes it took the sun's light to reach the earth. What I rejected was your allegations that Stellar Aberration caused a 2.1 degree apparent displacement, and that Stellar Aberration was affected by the distance to the light source.

Said mrjesse: Thus, I maintain that the biggest source of apparent angular displacement of the sun for an observer on the earth is Stellar Aberration, and is about 20 arcseconds, and is due to the earth's transverse velocity of 67K mph as it orbits the sun.
Replied LeGrande: Ahh, I have failed. >Legrande hangs his head in shame< Stellar Aberration has almost nothing to do with the Suns apparent position due to the Earths rotation. My dog Midnight is a pretty quick learner, maybe I should try and teach her some orbital mechanics : )


First of all, all the sources I've quoted and many more counter you directly claiming that indeed Stellar Aberration causes an apparent angular displacement due to the earth's transverse velocity of 67K MPH.

Second, In the sentence you're apparently replying to, I didn't say anything about the earth rotating as you indicate - only that the earth has a transverse velocity (that means crosswise velocity) of 67K mph. Do the math if you doubt me - 67Kmph for an observer causes about 20 arcseconds of Stellar Aberration angular displacement.

I have given up on trying to convince you of anything.

Sorry about that. It's just that when everything you say about something is contradictory to what I hold as common sense and contradictory to all the writings of scientists and when you're the only one in the whole wide world telling me something (that doesn't even make sense to begin with) along with your refusal to admit being wrong about things, yeah - it's hard for me to be convinced by what you say..

Many times I've been near deciding that there's just no way I'll get a coherent plausible response from you - but then you say yet another absurd easily disproved statement - and I like an easy job as much as the next guy. (the easy job being showing the error in your statement :-)

The other thing is I notice that even though you completely fail to carry your side of the discussion with any evidence or supporting data or research, you still pretend like you know what you're talking about and try to deceive other people as well. But I guess that goes along with the atheistic worldview that there is no wrong and it's just the survival of the fittest - including ideas - and even if they are not true.

Another thing which integrity calls for but which you refuse to do is name the phenomenon that you're talking about. What is the name of this phenomenon which causes the 2.1 degrees of angular displacement of the suns apparent position to an observer on earth at any given instant in time?

We know about stellar aberration. It's only ~20 arcseconds and is unrelated to earth-sun distance.
We know about Light-Time correction. It's caused by the transverse velocity of the light source/object compared to the observer, but the sun has very little transverse velocity compared to an observer on the earth.
We know about Secular Aberration. It does not apply to the observation of the sun from the earth since they are both moving through space at half a million miles together. And for other stars where it does apply, it's nowhere near the 2.1 degrees you claim.

In other words, if everyone at nasa knows about this phenomenon (as you have claimed)then there has got to be a name for it like "Such and such Aberration" or whatnot - but you refuse to tell me the name! You won't even tell me that you don't know the name. But for the love of pie -- tell us the name so we can go learn about it too!

But I'm pretty sure that you're just wrong and such a phenomenon does not exist anything like you describe. Otherwise other people would know about it.

-Jesse
1,846 posted on 09/27/2008 10:18:58 PM PDT by mrjesse (Could it be true? Imagine, being forgiven, and having a cause, greater then yourself, to live for!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1807 | View Replies ]


To: mrjesse
Looks like you're talking about an apparent angular rate -- not an apparent angular displacement at any given instant in time...!

How about the apparent angular rate of displacement? I would agree with that.

You're saying that Stellar Aberration has almost nothing to do with the Earth's velocity? I think you're wrong on that one. WP says "At the instant of any observation of an object, the apparent position of the object is displaced from its true position by an amount which depends upon the transverse component of the velocity of the observer, with respect to the vector of the incoming beam of light." Are you saying that they're wrong? I mean they could be -- but is that what you're saying? this article also agrees with WP and even provides formulas which do not include the sun-earth distance. Stellar aberration is not influenced by the distance to earth from sun, but only by the observer's transverse velocity at the time of observation -- compared to the object being observed. Are you saying that these sources are wrong? There are lots more that agree with them. Are you saying they are all wrong?

No What I am saying is that you leave out the important part. What is important in stellar aberration is the DIRECTION the Earth is moving. It is going in opposite directions in the Fall and the Spring. Yes velocity is a factor but the DIRECTION is the critical part in Stellar Aberration. Do you know why the actual velocity of 500 thousand plus miles per hour isn't factored in? Repeat after me, 'frame of reference'.

"In the case of an observer on Earth, the direction of its velocity varies during the year as Earth revolves around the Sun and this in turn causes the apparent position of the object to vary. This particular effect is known as annual aberration or stellar aberration, because it causes the apparent position of a star to vary periodically over the course of a year. "

Basically use the driving in the snow example, knowing that you are driving in a circle, with the ground as your frame of reference. If the car was your sole frame of reference your correction factor would be different.

No, the falling rain was an argument that you gave for your alleged 2.1 degrees which you said was a function of the rate of earth's rotation of 2.1 degrees in the 8.3 minutes it took the sun's light to reach the earth. What I rejected was your allegations that Stellar Aberration caused a 2.1 degree apparent displacement, and that Stellar Aberration was affected by the distance to the light source.

First off, stellar aberration applies to Stars apparent position with respect to the Earths direction of velocity and has nothing to do with the Suns apparent position due to the rotation of the Earth. The Earths radial velocity correction is very small. It is simply a correction on another axis.

Sorry about that. It's just that when everything you say about something is contradictory to what I hold as common sense and contradictory to all the writings of scientists and when you're the only one in the whole wide world telling me something (that doesn't even make sense to begin with) along with your refusal to admit being wrong about things, yeah - it's hard for me to be convinced by what you say..

You can tell yourself that, but you aren't disagreeing anymore with the idea that things aren't where they appear to be. Initially you claimed that the Sun was exactly where it appeared to be. You no longer make that claim : ) Like I said before you are only squabbling over the amount of aberration.

In other words, if everyone at nasa knows about this phenomenon (as you have claimed)then there has got to be a name for it like "Such and such Aberration" or whatnot - but you refuse to tell me the name! You won't even tell me that you don't know the name. But for the love of pie -- tell us the name so we can go learn about it too!

I will let you in on a little secret : ) Everyone, except the Pope and Creationists like yourself, has used the Sun as the coordinate center since the time of Galileo. My example to you illustrates just one of the difficulties encountered if you use the Earth as the frame of reference.

To answer your question. Astronomers use the Sun as the Coordinate Center not the Earth. Finding Earth centric information is difficult because it is more trivia than anything else. Your Stellar Aberration is a good case in point, it shows the compensation that needs to be made because of the Earths orbit of the Sun.

After all of this, I have to ask you a simple yes or no question before we go on. Is the apparent position of the sun exactly the same as the Suns actual position to an observer on the Earth?

1,849 posted on 09/28/2008 10:18:11 AM PDT by LeGrande
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