Posted on 08/23/2008 9:47:06 AM PDT by Clint Williams
I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes
"Attorney General Michael Mukasey has agreed to allow Congressional hearings, but not to delay, the implementation of new FBI regulations that would allow them to spy on American citizens who are not suspected of any crime. As an editorial in the New York Times points out, this is a power that has a history of abuse. In times past, it was used to wiretap Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. and to spy on other civil rights and anti-war protesters."
As Dekortage points out, "Several senators have formally complained that citizens could be investigated 'without any basis for suspicion,' which the Justice Department denies."
“I have a native Syrian as an officemate. He fashions himself as a “moderate” Muslim, but becomes quite agitated when the Israeli/Palistinian conflict is brought up.”
There may be moderate muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. (<==plagiarized)
Does the cop need a warrant?
Cops walking his beat again after running the thugs in, and he hears a woman scream. He rushes toward the scream which is coming through an open window.
Does the cop need a warrant?
Cop is sitting down in a local hamburger joint in the morning. While he's eating his doughnut he hears the Korean guys in the next booth discussing kidnapping Kim Dai Jong, sealing him in a crate, and shipping him to Korea in a KAL airliner departing that evening.
Does the cop need a warrant?
In no case here was the cop required to have a warrant. For one thing he can't turn his eyes off, nor his ears, not even in a private establishment eating doughnuts.
This is called "wireless surveillance".
“The solution to that is to get the Klintonoid scum out of the FBI, not to hamstring it in time of war.”
Regardless of who is in the White House the laws should be the same. We know who the enemy is, and its not white christian ex air force guys.
“This is far from unrestricted power. This gives them the authority to gather information, not the power to do anything about it.”
It allows them to go on fishing expeditions at the expense of anyone who they don’t like.
“So, then you are aware that Islam itself is at war with us, and not just a “few extremists?””
Absolutely, the west has been at war with Islam for roughly 1000 years with periods of increased conflict.
“No, and it’s not a retired Air Force guy with a bunker full of fully automatic AK-47s and a million rounds of ammunition, either.”
Nope, but it will allow the hero’s (Judicial branches opinion) who killed a child, an unarmed woman and burned 80 some people to target anyone they like. Without oversight, without due cause, without justification. You want a promotion; get a conviction.
“If the potential for abuse is our criterion, then we must also repeal our laws against murder and rape.”
And you just revealed yourself.
Our laws against murder and rape only target those who have committed a crime. They don’t allow the police to randomly watch people to see if they are thinking of a crime.
Give me a reason why I should not suspect you of evil intentions.
“I for one think our government has way too much power.”
And I, for one, think we are doing far to little to meet the threat.
“The “they will only use it for good” mantra is pure crap.”
If they don’t have the authority they need to find Jihadists, we’re all dead.
“We know who our enemy is.”
Do ya? Do ya really? Google on Jan Sobieski.
“Defining anyone who owns a weapon and who many have military training as a suspect is straight out of the history books.”
Funny, I didn’t find that in the materials presented.
“Unless the people give it up the govt cannot do squat”
Again, if the government doesn’t “do squat,” we’re all dead.
“so take your tired arguments and find another police state.”
I earned my right to speak.
None of those are the same and it is extremely disingenuous of you to state otherwise.
Why don’t we just run all phone and email through the govt. Seek their permission before we call Mom, seek their permission before taking our wife out for dinner. Wouldn’t want to commit a crime now would we.
“And you just revealed yourself.”
The problem with delusions is that other people can’t see them. “Revealed” myself as what?
“Our laws against murder and rape only target those who have committed a crime.”
And yet so many innoccent people have been convicted.
“They don’t allow the police to randomly watch people to see if they are thinking of a crime.”
The FBI doesn’t have the manpower to “randomly watch people.” They have to follow their best leads, only targeting those who are conspiring to commit terrorist acts.
“Funny, I didn’t find that in the materials presented.”
Thats what a public education gets ya.
“I earned my right to speak.”
And yet you are so willing to give it up.
We’re at war and yet you choose to give unfettered power to those who have proven themselves willing and able to abuse their power.
Get a warrant or go home.
Boy has FR changed.
DOD does regular radiation detection surveillance in the area.
I don't think you understand ~ the first woman is under attack, the second woman is screaming for help, and the foreign guy is in real danger of death or kidnapping. Phone calls, per se, may be quite meaningful here ~ you may believe you live in a safe area, but I have no reason to believe that.
revealed yourself as someone willing to twist fact to get what you want.
“The FBI doesn’t have the manpower to “randomly watch people.” They have to follow their best leads, only targeting those who are conspiring to commit terrorist acts.”
Yeah that whole judicial oversight thing really is about manpower. Secret courts, secret monitoring, and secret police. What country exactly are we talking about??
“I don’t think you understand ~ the first woman is under attack, the second woman is screaming for help, and the foreign guy is in real danger of death or kidnapping. Phone calls, per se, may be quite meaningful here ~ you may believe you live in a safe area, but I have no reason to believe that. “
What this proposes is to ignore the screaming woman and watch the one working at her computer.
I’m sure a person like Obama wouldn’t abuse power like this.
“It allows them to go on fishing expeditions at the expense of anyone who they don’t like.”
What expense? Aside from that, you are aware that “fishing expedition” is a leftist buzzword, and a concept they invented to damage the Constitution, right?
They can go on all the “fishing expeditions” they like, but if there’s no crime there, nothing comes of it.
Looked at another way, if they think somebody’s dirty, this allows them to look and see. If he is, the rules of evidence, Miranda, and all the rest kick in. If he’s not, no harm, no foul.
“Nope, but it will allow the hero’s (Judicial branches opinion) who killed a child, an unarmed woman and burned 80 some people to target anyone they like.”
Look, I’m as outraged about Ruby Ridge and Waco as anybody, but I attribute that to the malevolent influence of Billy Jeff Airplane Blythe. The FBI has done a lot of good in its history, and can again, once the Klintonoid scum are bounced out.
That said, they are “targeting” with blanks. No matter how much information they gather on someone, they still have to convince a prosecutor to seek an indictment, and satisfy all rules of criminal procedure and civil rights.
“Without oversight, without due cause, without justification.”
So, you don’t want law enforcement to be able to eavesdrop “without oversight, without due cause, without justification.” Really? They’ve already got both arms and one eyeball tied behind their backs; now you want to cut off their legs, too?
“You want a promotion; get a conviction.”
To get a conviction you still have to jump through all the fiery hoops that the ACLU and other vile scum have erected to protect the guilty.
They only effect this eavesdropping provision will have is to up the odds that the right person is in the dock.
“revealed yourself as someone willing to twist fact to get what you want.”
My goodness, that’s very insulting. And untrue.
“Yeah that whole judicial oversight thing really is about manpower. Secret courts, secret monitoring, and secret police. What country exactly are we talking about??”
Funny how often it happens that, when a person accuses you of something absurd from way out in left field, it’s something he does himself.
Talk to me again when you get in touch with reality.
it was used to wiretap Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
RFK is back?
LBJ is back and has asked Hoover to wiretap Goldwater?
What's going on.. a time warp?
““Funny, I didn’t find that in the materials presented.”
Thats what a public education gets ya.”
More of my education was at expensive private schools.
“And yet you are so willing to give it up.”
Road apples. This provision just allows the FBI to eavesdrop. In time of war, with the serpents already in our front yards, that’s a good thing.
“We’re at war and yet you choose to give unfettered power”
That is utter nonsense. The authority to eavesdrop is hardly “unfettered power.”
“Boy has FR changed.”
Yes, since I joined in 1998 the average intelligencce, knowledge, wisdom, and comportment of posters has dropped like a stone.
Re-interpreting rules, arising from over sixty years of extraordinary prosperity and remote hostilities, does not endanger Constitutional liberties. Behind media/political veils of complacency and disinterest, people jeopardize their lives to counter enemies so dissociated from country or culture, so committed to butchery they usually match Webster’s definition for virus, and never display civility required for Geneva Convention definitions of militia or armed force. Current rules and administrative laws are often fragile, foolish structures plastering a Constitution proven resilient through the invasion of 1812, the Civil War, and two world wars.
Predictable danger comes from bestowing new rules upon ossified, careerist F.B.I. bureaucrats willing to support any political agenda, which advances personal empires. Human actions primarily focused on personal preservation and advancement resides within most public and private organizations. A study of WW II intelligence services such as O.N.I., F.B.I., O.S.S., Hypo, OP-20-G, S.I.S., S.O.E., and A.I. reveals innumerable redoubts and intense conflicts. You often want to paraphrase the lady in the Simpson’s by saying, “Won’t anybody think of the Nazi’s”.
Unfortunately natural selection seems to regularly exclude individuals performing on a principled basis, and conflicted about civil liberties and national security. Too often people possessing limited political utility are rooted out or diverted to purely technical cul-de-sacs. Such people need prominence and robust authority.
If this sort of senseless thrashing about can occur in the midst of WW II, then we are in for a profound cataclysmic event before the Global War on Terror can be taken seriously.
Were you around when Waco happened? IIRC, the FBI was involved in a warrantless assualt that left about 80 people dead.
Check my posting history and my activism. You've been around here awhile. I'm assuming you're just poking the bear.
Give me a reason why I should not suspect you of being a raconteur.
I may regret this, but pls explain.
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