Posted on 08/19/2008 6:54:24 AM PDT by reaganaut1
I'm glad it's worked out so well for you. I have, on the other hand, seen plenty of examples of people who have kids and never should have.
I'm not afraid to say it--having children made me a much better person.
Good for you (and I'm not being sarcastic).
Here's the problem I have with what you've been saying: you've asserted that people who chose to be childless are by definition selfish, immature and shallow. In my experience such traits have absolutely squat to do with one's reproductive status. I know people without children who are giving, mature, and lead rich, full lives.
John Edwards is working as fast as he can!
I used to really detest Mo Dowd. She is like so many of the other normal girls I met at Stanford who, after 4-8 years of leftist indoctrination in college and grad school, became doctrinaire, ball-busting, bitter, angry feminists.
But lately I am sensing that Dowd has figured things out and is just toying with her readers. Meaning, someday she might meet a man, get married, quit the job or go part-time, and confess to the world that careers, feminism, and all the rest of it aren't what they seemed.
The rest of the lib world will be furious, just like they were when Gloria Steinem ("a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle") got married in her late 60s.
Quoting from your post (#88): The only reason to not have children if you are married and physically capable is selfishness. Well, at least you're now only insulting 99% of those who choose to be childless. It's a start, I suppose.
...whose lives revolve around themselves, their careers, their latest trivial pursuits and expensive toys. In my opinion, such folks have their priorities seriously screwed up.
We'll leave my sister out of it at this point and use myself as an example instead. I'm single, never been married, and will likely never be married. I have no children, nor do I desire any. My life revolves around:
1) Myself. How can my life not revolve (in part!) around myself?
2) My career. I work to live not work to live...but I do put in 40+ hours a week. Of course that's an important part of my life...just as it is to everyone who works for a living.
3) My trivial pursuits. By this, I can only suppose you mean my hobbies and interests. While my life certainly doesn't revolve around wargaming and book collecting, I do spend a fair amount of time gaming with my friends and reading for pleasure.
4) My expensive toys. Being single and making a decent living, I can afford some toys. I enjoy collecting military firearms. If I want to buy a $200 book on impulse, I can certainly afford to do so. I usually make a trip overseas every year or two.
Ok, that's everything on your list. In all fairness, I also need to add two items that I don't think are atypical of the childless:
5) My friends. I have a number of close friends that I enjoy spending time with; gaming, going out to the theatre and movies, or just hanging out.
6) My family. I'm quite close to my sister. My parents are both still alive, but they're getting on in years, and I spend a great deal of time helping them out.
Ok, your turn. Am I a perpetual adolescent whose priorities are seriously screwed up? Which of these priorities shouldn't my life revolve around, and what new priorities should I get?
“I have no children, nor do I desire any”
I’m not sure why someone would argue that you SHOULD have children when you admit you do not desire any.
Wouldn’t it be odd for you to have children out of some sense of peer pressure, when you don’t care to have them?
Hey - you are a self supporting tax paying valuable american.
If we all lived exactly alike, the world would be a boring place.
Well, at least one person on this thread has asserted that the only reason a married person would choose not to have children is selfishness. I've encountered that attitude from a number of people in the past.
Hey - you are a self supporting tax paying valuable american.
If we all lived exactly alike, the world would be a boring place.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I don't have the slightest problem with someone having half a dozen kids...assuming of course that they're not being supported by The State! I just don't understand why someone wouldn't extend the same courtesy to someone who chooses to be childless.
It’s not just social policies. It’s employent policies. Women who becomes doctors or lawyers or Ph.D’s are looked at as investments by the hiring organization. After the company/firm has invested two years in training said woman, if she takes maternity leave, the expense of the training is a loss.
My daughter is beginning grad school next month, and plans to continue thru to her Ph.D., hoping for a career in academe. She has been told that her chances of being hired and/or achieving tenure are reduced if she chooses to have a family or is seen as someone who might choose to have a family. THe same attitude prevails in law firms, hospitals, science labs. It may be understandable from the employer’s perspective, but makes the decision to have a family more difficult for the educated woman.
“Thank you, I appreciate that. I don’t have the slightest problem with someone having half a dozen kids...assuming of course that they’re not being supported by The State!”
How about 8?
LOL!
No welfare here, but after paying for heating oil this coming season things will be getting pretty lean!
“I was on that same trajectory as you for a while myself—including the trips, books, and firearms. I believe it took a miracle to break me out of it—literally.”
Hmmm....this statement right here reminded me of my boss.
He promised everyone he was a lifelong bachelor.
He worked with children all day everyday and didn’t care to have any waiting for him at home.
He had his hobbies he loved and appeared to everyone he was very satisfied.
Then at the age of 53 he met “her.”
Got all googly eyed and mushy.
To everyone’s shock there was a wedding within a year and a baby boy soon after.
His boy just finished kindergarten - and my boss is pushing 60.
He is excuberant - says he loves hanging out with the young parents at the school (people assume he’s grandpa), and is really glad he is experiencing fatherhood.
You never know what life will throw you.
Sometimes people are surprised when they wind up enjoying something that didn’t appeal to them before.
“THe same attitude prevails in law firms, hospitals, science labs. It may be understandable from the employer’s perspective, but makes the decision to have a family more difficult for the educated woman.”
In my experience I found female bosses to be very insensitive and rigid when it came to pregnancy and motherhood.
One female boss was outright weird and hostile and forced me out.
My new boss is a man and couldn’t be more helpful and understanding.
Go figure.
Maybe women were too picky, or wanted it all (career and family but chose career first) or maybe they just didn’t meet the right person? I know some men who did the same thing.
I do agree about the whole sperm donor part. Single motherhood is a fad today. Personally, raising a child without a father is hard enough but for one to do it intentionally boggles my mind. I met my husband in college, got married and had kids, in that order. I was fortunate to get the degrees/pieces of paper before/during marriage/kids. I had a college prof tell me that “you can’t have it all without something suffering, regardless of what you’re told.” I changed my career path after college and before grad school based on that advice.
I knew what I wanted to be, a wife and mom first.
I think it’s easier finding someone when one is younger. Less baggage.
What "foil"? Your original point was about married people who choose to be childless. I simply gave more detail about myself as an example because I didn't feel like going on about her life in too much detail, but if it will make you happy, substitute Christmas memorabilia for guns, and add item:
7) Her Husband
to her list of things her life revolves around.
You've basically provided an itemized list of how your life revolves around you and are then insulted when someone dares to point out that folks who live lives like that may be selfish to begin with?
Gee, you're right. Spending time with friends, family, helping out my parents...it's nothing but me, me, me!
Look, I'm sorry if my posts have hit a little too close to home in your case. But that's not going to prevent me from speaking out on this issue.
No need to be sorry. Rest assured, you're not too close to home when you're completely off the mark.
I've got relatives who have lived the childless life--and are absolutely miserable now that they're in their 50s and 60s. One cousin in particular prided herself on her professional career--until she got laid off from her prestigious, high-paying job out of the blue. She also latched onto her nephews--until they hit college and suddenly hanging out with auntie wasn't cool anymore. Now she lives alone, works part-time doing things she doesn't really enjoy, and wonders where it all went wrong. She'll sit around reminiscing about how wonderful things were when the family was large and she had aunts, uncles, and cousins galore and doesn't for a second understand that she's a large part of why it has now become small.
I'm almost in my 50s now, and I'm anything but miserable. Quite the opposite. What's more, I have relatives who lived the childless life who weren't miserable later in life.
Does that make me right and you wrong? Perhaps a more realistic outlook on this issue would be that some childless people are happy later in life, and some aren't. Moreover, some people who have children are happy later in life, and some aren't. Or isn't that black and white enough?
I was on that same trajectory as you for a while myself--including the trips, books, and firearms. I believe it took a miracle to break me out of it--literally.
A miracle?
Please tell me, what laws of nature were suspended?
Speaking from this experience, I urge you to do something about your life while you still can.
What do you urge me to do? Bonus points will be awarded for specificity.
You won't want to hear it....
Now waitaminute. Just one sentence ago you urged me to change my ways. Let me assure you that I want to hear it.
I'll have to head to bed for now, though. I have to get up for work in 8 hours. Of course work was on the list of things my life revolves around. Perhaps I should call in sick...
My husband is an Engineer. We met in college. Our oldest is going to major in Engineering (she’s a Senior in high school now). He says that female engineers are few and those females when he was in college weren’t in his social group. Our kid is also an athlete so maybe it will be different for her. She’s also a “social butterfly” so who knows.
Engineers are very picky, lol. They’re so detail oriented. We think we met in the right place at the right time.
I think tats are icky on women but that’s just a personal opinion (as a woman). I don’t think it says anything about the person with the tat.
Awww, you're just too damned picky. :^)
Watch how kids treat their parents and parents treat their kids.
My Dad and I fought like crazy. I was his baby girl and he was my hero. We were close, yet we fought. Fighting didn’t diminish our relationship. In the middle of a huge fight, he’d crack a joke and we’d be rolling on the floor.
All this looking at how a daughter treats her father is BS to me. My Dad showed me what a man is like. I married that kind of man. I always say to my girls, your dad is the kind of guy you want to marry BECAUSE of the way he treats you. My husband does the same thing my Dad did in a middle of a fight, he cracks a joke, brings us all back to reality laughing.
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