Posted on 08/16/2008 1:28:50 AM PDT by elhombrelibre
TBILISI, Georgia — As the conflict between Russia and Georgia enters its second week, there is growing evidence of looting and “ethnic cleansing” in a number of villages throughout the area of conflict.
The attacks — some witnessed by reporters or documented by a human rights group — include stealing, the burning of villages and possibly even killings. Some are ethnically motivated, while at least some of the looting appears to be the work of profiteers in areas from which the authorities have fled.
The identities of the attackers vary, but a pattern of violence by ethnic Ossetians against ethnic Georgians is emerging and has been confirmed by some Russian authorities. “Now Ossetians are running around and killing poor Georgians in their enclaves,” said Maj. Gen. Vyacheslav Nikolaevich Borisov, the commander in charge of the city of Gori, occupied by the Russians.
A lieutenant from an armored transport division that was previously in Chechnya said: “We have to be honest. The Ossetians are marauding.”
The hostilities between Russia and Georgia started last week when the Georgian military marched into the disputed territory of South Ossetia, and the Russians responded by sending troops into the pro-Russia, separatist enclave and then into Georgia proper.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
;-)
agree PJB that it is not in our interest to include Georgia in NATO, which means an attack against one is an attack against all.
NATO set a dangerous precedent with its involvement in Kosovo, which is part of Serbia and now recognizing Kosovo [a breakaway state] as an independent nation. The Russians have made that linkage between Kosovo and Georgia. It is also worth noting that Russian "peacekeepers" have been in Georgia since 1992.
In hind sight, we picked the wrong side, in siding with the mullahs in Afghanistan. We should have been neutral. Then and now, IMO, they are the more dangerous enemy.
Who’s talking about Iraq? The issue at hand is Georgia, and the US response to it. He had it bang on right; if our leaders in DC had had these insights, we wouldn’t appear to be so weak and powerless (which, in fact, we are in Georgia).
You still haven’t addressed his analysis of Georgia. As such, I’ll assume you consider it to be unassailable.
I’ll bet it gets nasty cold in Georgia in the winter . . . brrrrr. I disliked rolling around in the ice and snow so much that I requested Ft. Hood, TX after being stationed in Wildflecken, GE for two years! haha
I’m sorry, but you apparently can’t follow the point. It’s not my position nor Pat Buchanan’s that Russia’s response in Georgia is OK. Rather, it’s the reality of what’s happening there. We are not going to go to Georgia, our troops are not going to Georgia, and we are not going to stop the Russians from doing whatever they want. The US will stand aside and do nothing. It’s sad, but that’s what’s happening. We are not all Georgians now, per Sen. McKeating.
PJB’s point was that we’ve made imperial overreach to the point of impotency. The events of the past week show that, and as such, it’s a wake-up call to us.
What price will the Russians pay? The 2014 Olympics will be withdrawn from Sobchi? Unlikely. Europe will push them out? Unlikely. NATO? Ditto. They won’t get into the WTO? They aren’t now and it doesn’t matter to them as much. They’ll pay a price in treasure or blood? From the 37,000 man Georgian Army? Perhaps; no signs yet.
If the people in Russia’s Near Abroad want to fight back, then that’s great and we should arm them. But that’s not Pat’s point. His greater point is that we look weak, whining about what Putin did but unable to shape the situation on the ground. It’s true that PJB’s an admited paleo-con, who doesn’t think we should be entangled in all these foreign alliances. I agree, not least b/c that was the prescient warning of President George Washington.
Nota bene: Pat agreed with President Bush that Russia’s response was disproportionate and brutal. If Pat didn’t condemn it, it’s only because you think that the President didn’t either.
We’ve troops in Georgia now. You probably didn’t know that.
Seems to fit the Russian Army rather well. Bank robbers.
Yeah, Jimmy Carter organized the boycott of the Olympics. We supplied the Afghan rebels with stingers, other weapons, money, etc. and they eventually were able to drive out the Soviets. This led to the rise of the Taliban and OBL who used Afghanistan as a sanctuary and base for AQ to plan the 9/11 attack and train tens of thousands of AQ members. All things considered, it may have been better to have the Soviet puppet government still running the place.
If the Russians don't get out of Georgia, they'll pay a huge price in prestige, blood, and treasure. The defeatists can come up with a million reasons why Putin will crush all of the people of the former satellite states. I don't think you're right. There are ways to fight back, and that day will come if the Russians do not get out.
You are creating phony strawmen. There is no doubt we can aid Georgia thru other means just like we did the Afghans, but there is no way we confront the Russians militarily in Georgia. Nor should we push for their inclusion in NATO unless we are ready to invoke Article 5 of the NATO charter, which has only been done once, i.e., in Afghanistan in response to 9/11.
We are going to have something of a showdown already with the Russians and Serbs over Kosovo. They won't recognize Kosovo and will block their admission to the UN. And they could cause some problems there that may require NATO involvement, i..e, they can supply rebels inside Kosovo with weapons, advisors, etc. It is odd that we are trying to protect Islamic terrorist groups like the KLA in Kosovo in the heart of Europe. Albania is 70% Muslim and Kosovo is mainly Muslim.
So instead of a column offering harsh criticism of a Russian invasion, the same way he offered harsh criticism of a US invasion of Iraq, he writes a column of “I told you so, shouldn’t mess with Russia.”
Fact is, he offered far more criticism of the US removal of a tyrannical thug dictator than he has offered of Russia for the invasion of a capitalist, democratic country.
Pat has joined the hate America first crowd. Too bad, I think he used to actually like the US.
Well said. Buchanan’s 15 minutes are long gone. I wish he was off the stage as well.
He’s turned into the “conservative” of liberals’ choice. They love him because he wears a conservative label and says what liberals want him to say.
They are totally uncivilized.
That is too horrible for words.
Thank you both for the pings.
Thanks, too, for the link, MarMema.
Yes, but they are not there to drive the Russians back, are they?
No; he wrote a column condemning the Russians but point out that a) it was foreseeable and b) we misplayed it. The idea is that we learn from mistakes, and this was a big one.
And he didn’t say ‘don’t mess with Russia’; he said if you mess with Russia there will be consequences and they won’t be good for our prestige. You can read it as ‘I told you so’, but given the situation, there’s nothing wrong with an instructive replay in advance.
Listen, you don’t like him but he was right about Iraq and Georgia. Iraq was also badly misplayed; even the President agreed. Now Georgia has been misplayed. Put your dislike of PJB aside.
He’s an admited paleo-con, who wrote a book “A Republic, Not an Empire” Just b/c he doesn’t share the Wilsonian project we have going doesn’t mean that he doesn’t love America.
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