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To: wintertime
Government schools can **not** uphold all clauses of the First Amendment simultaneously. It is impossible!

* If government allows free speech it violates establishment of religion, because students **will** talk about their religion with the other captive students.

If it tries not to establish religion, it inadvertently establishes atheism, and also shuts down free speech, free press, free assembly, and free expression of religion. Government also teaches the students that religion is irrelevant, unnecessary, and something so shameful we must be silent about it. This isn't religiously neutral.


Your statements show a profound misunderstanding of the law.

First of all, atheism is not a religion. Its a philosophical position. Being an atheist simply implies one holds a particular potion in relation to the truth value of a particular proposition. It donest carry along with it the baggage and hall makes of a religion.

Second, a school allowing for free speech DOES NOT violate the establishment clause, because its not assumed that allowing someone to speak is an automatic endorsement of whats said.

See if you can follow me here.

THIS is a violation of the establishment clause:

The principal of a public school gets up in front a graduating high school class and leads the group in prayer.

This is NOT a violation of the establishment clause:

A student speaker at a public high school graduation ceremony asks the assembled to join him in prayer.

The first is a violation because the principal is a public figure, and he has a certain level of authority and power over the students that he can, perhaps with intending to, us to compel them to pray.

The second is not a violation because the student is not a public authority figure, and obviously lacks the authority to coerce people into praying.

Furthermore, compelling the student to NOT lead people in prayer IS a free speech violation.

What it boils down to is that the government, in its authority as such, can neither encourage nor discourage any particular religion, or groups there of.

That can mean not having any Christmas related religious display, or having every possible one. Either of those is acceptable. What they CANNOT do is have only one religions display up and forbid the others. That is favoritism.
76 posted on 08/13/2008 12:39:11 PM PDT by Daemin ("The simple believeth every word." - Proverbs 14:15)
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To: Daemin
First of all, atheism is not a religion. Its a philosophical position. Being an atheist simply implies one holds a particular potion in relation to the truth value of a particular proposition. It donest carry along with it the baggage and hall makes of a religion.

Atheism is not a religion? Wow! Now that does show a profound ignorance of Supreme Court rulings. I hope you are not an attorney.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. The Supremes consider atheism to be a religion. Please do a Google on the words: "Supreme Court Atheism is Religion"

There are only two possible broad worldviews regarding religious belief that any school can take: God-centered and godless. Within those two worldviews ( godless and God-centered) there are of course many subsets.

Neither worldview is religiously neutral both will have profound consequences for the child. The consequences of either worldview are not religiously, politically, or culturally neutral for the child or our nation.

The government by **establishing** the godless worldview in its schools preaches in many overt and subtle ways the religion of atheistic Secular Humanism. The government teaches the child that his or her personal religion is irrelevant, insignificant, and of little worth in evaluating the lessons taught in their school about culture and collective human knowledge. Since the government school is silent about their religion and forbids religious expression and practice throughout the day, the government is teaching children that their religion must be hidden away as if it were somehow shameful.

In K-12 government schools children who are under police threat to be confined in government school buildings are punished for exercising their First Amendment Rights. They are forbidden to speak, freely publish or practice their religion during nearly the entire day. It is the government who dictates to the child exactly with whom the child will assemble. This is true for **all** children whose parents can not ransom them from the government's grip by paying extra to send the child to private school or homeschool.

If the child were to resist the government's suppression of his First Amendment Rights. The government will punish him. If he resists to a sufficient level police will arrest him, courts will try him, and he will be sent to prison.

While government schools do allow some limited time for free speech and other First Amendment Rights for most of the day the child is ordered by the government to be silent.

On the college and university level there are not as many First Amendment concerns since attendance is voluntary...however... there is still the First Amendment problem of religious neutrality. NO school is religiously neutral. This includes colleges and universities.

Our nation's government colleges and universities are currently godless in their worldview and this is not religiously neutral in content or consequences. When government is running colleges and universities, the government will be establishing some form of religious belief. At the moment it is atheism.

Finally,....Taxpayers are under police threat to pay for a government religious worldview ( godlessness or atheism)that is preached daily in the government schools.

While the government can require citizens to pay for many services, we are protected by the First Amendment from having to pay taxes for government established religion. Unfortunately, the First Amendment is ignored with regard to the establishment of the government religion of atheism in government schools.

Government schools are an abomination! They are an insult to the First Amendment and to freedom of conscience. Government K-12 schools are especially egregious since many children are under police threat to attend them.

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing government education K-graduate school.

If you support government education there is one way to resolve the conundrum. We need another constitutional amendment. It should read:

"Government can establish the religion of atheism and an atheistic worldview in it compulsory ( police, court, and foster care threat) schools. It can order children to be silent throughout the day. The government will determine with whom the child will assemble during the day. The government can forbid religious practice and expression of the child during most of the day. And the government will teach all subjects from an atheistic and godless point of view. The government can and will use armed police if taxpayers are unwilling to pay for the indoctrination of children in the government religion of godlessness. "

98 posted on 08/13/2008 2:00:48 PM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: Daemin

“It donest carry along with it the baggage and hall makes of a religion.”

LOL....ever heard of Michael Newdow?


277 posted on 08/14/2008 2:11:02 PM PDT by tpanther (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing-----Edmund Burke)
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