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To: Soliton; Loud Mime
Simply to point out that our founding fathers were men of their time and that they suffered from ignorance and prejudice just like everyone else

If it were your genuine intent to accurately demonstrate the “ignorance” and prejudice of Mr. Jefferson and his generation, surely you would have felt compelled to insert a more comprehensive understanding of that generation than the skewed perspective you perpetuate with the quote you have offered to this forum.

Perhaps something like the following:

QUERY XVIII. The particular customs and manners that may happen to be received in that State? It is difficult to determine on the standard by which the manners of a nation may be tried, whether catholic or particular. It is more difficult for a native to bring to that standard the manners of his own nation, familiarized to him by habit. There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. This quality is the germ of all education in him. From his cradle to his grave he is learning to do what he sees others do. If a parent could find no motive either in his philanthropy or his self-love, for restrain in the intemperance of passion towards his slave, it should always be a sufficient one that his child is present. But generally it is not sufficient. The parent storms the child looks on catches the lineaments of wrath, puts on the same airs in the circle of smaller slaves, gives a loose to the worst of passions, and thus nursed, educated, and daily exercised in tyranny, cannot but be stamped by it with odious peculiarities. The man must be a prodigy who can retain his manners and morals undepraved by such circumstances. And with what execration should the statesman be loaded, who, permitting one half the citizens thus to trample on the rights of the other, transforms those into despots, and these into enemies, destroys the morals of the one part, and the amor patrice of the other. For if a slave can have a country in this world, it must be any other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labor for another; in which he must lock up the faculties of his nature, contribute as far as depends on his individual endeavors to the evanishment of the human race, or entail his own miserable condition on the endless generations proceeding from him. With the morals of the people, their industry also is destroyed. For in a warm climate, no man will labor for himself who can make another labor for him. This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labor. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever; that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events; that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest. But it is impossible to be temperate and to pursue this subject through the various considerations of policy, of morals, of history natural and civil. We must be contented to hope they will force their way into every one's mind. I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.

. . . . . Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, ME, Vol II, Notes on Virginia, pg 225

Or, if you find the above too protracted:

The bill on the subject of slaves, was a mere digest of the existing laws respecting them, without any intimation of a plan for a future and general emancipation. It was thought better that this should be kept back, and attempted only by way of amendment, whenever the bill should be brought on. The principles of the amendment, however, were agreed on, that is to say, the freedom of all born after a certain day, and deportation at a proper age. But it was found that the public mind would not yet bear the proposition, nor will it bear it even at this day. Yet the day is not distant when it must bear and adopt it, or worse will follow. Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate, than that these people are to be free; nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion have drawn indelible lines of distinction between them. It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degree, as that the evil will wear off insensibly, and their place be filled up by free white laborers. If, on the contrary, it is left to force itself on, human nature must shudder at the prospect held up. We should in vain look for an example in the Spanish deportation or deletion of the Moors.

. . . . . Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, ME, Vol I, Autobiography, pg 72

For all of his ignorance, Mr. Jefferson, and many another of his generation, displays an understanding of mankind that entirely escapes the understanding of today’s Liberals, as well as far too many politicians who claim to be Republican.

By the way, can you cite the source of the quote you used, or did you simply lift it off an atheist website without recourse to any further inquiry? Just wondering.

18 posted on 07/29/2008 3:31:54 PM PDT by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS

“By the way, can you cite the source of the quote you used, or did you simply lift it off an atheist website without recourse to any further inquiry? Just wondering.”

I’m sorry. I didn’t know you had broken your google.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2D0gAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA623&lpg=RA1-PA623&dq=Whether+the+black+of+the+negro+resides+in+the+reticular+membrane+between+the+skin+and+scarf-skin,+or+in+the+scarf-skin+itself&source=web&ots=gov8LWHvuv&sig=_3nT3ZRHFwHbv8-thOTgI2EiqWc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result


19 posted on 07/29/2008 3:59:26 PM PDT by Soliton (Investigate, study, learn, then express an opinion)
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To: YHAOS
Thanks for stepping in on one matter; I'm on the road and have limited Internet time. I had not yet had time to verify the "quote" and tend to trust others. I should set an example with better citations and will make an effort to do so in the future. Meanwhile, I can't find a source for that quote.

Your citing the Notes on Virginia was timely. Just last week I purchased an old copy of "The Life and Selected Writings for Thomas Jefferson" from a wonderful used bookstore in Denver. It's almost 800 pages.

Your post took me to this:

Back in the late eighteenth century the Virginia slaveowners who were Jefferson's contemporaries hadn't taken this Jeffersonian antislavery seriously. They knew Jefferson personally, and knew he meant no harm. And many of them were in the habit of saying the same sorts of things themselves, in appropriate company.

By the mid nineteenth century, however, southerners had to take Jefferson's antislavery writings seriously, because northerners were taking them seriously, and using them against the South. Taking the Declaration of Independence in conjunction with Jefferson's antislavery utterances (well publicized in the North for more than two decades), northerners were able on the eve of the Civil War to read antislavery intentions into the Declaration of Independence itself, and thus to enlist both the Declaration and its author on their side in the coming war. In a letter of April, 1859, Lincoln wrote,

"All honor to Jefferson -- to the man who, in the concrete pressure of a struggle for national independence by a single people, had the coolness, forecast, and capacity to introduce into a merely revolutionary document, an abstract truth, and so to embalm it there, that today, and in all coming days, it shall be a rebuke and a stumbling block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression."

Source and more...

24 posted on 07/30/2008 1:01:08 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Obama the Messiai----uh, er, um, uh, uh.)
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