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Wind turbine marketers are full of hot air
Globe and Mail Update ^ | July 11, 2008 | Neil Reynolds

Posted on 07/25/2008 8:23:14 AM PDT by twistedwrench

Republican presidential candidate Senator John McCain travelled to Oregon in mid-May to deliver the definitive climate change speech of his campaign. He spoke in Portland, at the U.S. headquarters of Vestas Wind Systems AS, a Danish company that markets wind turbines around the world. He started on a self-deprecating note. “Today is a kind of test run for this company,” he said. “They've got wind technicians here, wind studies and all these wind turbines. But there's no wind. So now I know why they asked me to come and give a speech.”

It was perhaps his most perceptive statement of the day. Five sentences later, Mr. McCain made perhaps his least perceptive. “Wind,” he said, “is a predictable source of energy.”

(Excerpt) Read more at theglobeandmail.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: energy; environment; enviroprofiteering; powerfantasies; shysters; wind; windpower
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To: meyer
There are a few of these around including TVA's Raccoon Mountain pumped storage hydro facility: Raccoon Mountain

And San Luis dam/lake in California, for the last 50 years or so.

61 posted on 07/25/2008 2:12:24 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: Pontiac
Inverter $3,000??, Batteries $1,000?? Solar panels ??? He did all the wiring himself. i am familiar with a small system for a cabin that ran about $5.000 10 years ago.
62 posted on 07/25/2008 2:14:37 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.)
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To: jpsb
I like nukes, but I've heard that it costs more to decommission a nuke plant then it cost to build and operate it.

I doubt that very much.
I do know that there are functional morons on this forum who constantly claim that it costs more to get rid of a Prius after its useful life than it cost to buy it.

Don't believe everything you hear.

63 posted on 07/25/2008 2:16:16 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: stevio
Please explain your insult.

Can't insult a statement.
The power distribution area, and the typical distribution losses in countries bigger than tiny Denmark make the statement and comparison comical.

64 posted on 07/25/2008 2:21:04 PM PDT by Publius6961 (You're Government, it's not your money, and you never have to show a profit.)
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To: twistedwrench; Normandy; Delacon; According2RecentPollsAirIsGood; TenthAmendmentChampion; ...
 




Beam me to Planet Gore !

65 posted on 07/25/2008 2:23:18 PM PDT by steelyourfaith
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To: Publius6961
Do you even know what my reference point was?

My original statement from post #6 "Power plants produce energy whether it’s used or not."

Pontiac replied in post #10 "Not true.

Every electric power producer has large power plants that run almost all of the time called Base Load plants.

Then they have medium sized plants that increase or decrease power production to meet rising or falling demand called Load Following plants.

Then there are plants that are started up only when demand is at its greatest called Peaking Plants. Some of these are gas turbine plants that are fully automated and can be started remotely from a Systems Operation Center.

It would be economically wasteful to generate power that was not used and it would cause destructive imbalances in the distribution system."

Then my reply was to tell the Danes, who from the article run the coal plants no matter what the wind is doing. When was I talking about "distribution losses"? So yea, it was an insult.

66 posted on 07/25/2008 2:33:24 PM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: 109ACS
Instead of tying the wind generators into the grid, wouldn’t it be feasible to use the energy to produce hydrogen (and oxygen) through hydrolysis? Then you wouldn’t care so much about the intermittent wind.

Perhaps McCain should visit General Compression. Their windmills turn air compressors instead of generators. The intermittently compressed air accumulates in a network of pipes and tanks (or underground cave if available), where it is available to power generators as needed.

67 posted on 07/25/2008 2:37:10 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: STONEWALLS

It’s supposed to shift peak use to non-business hours. I hear it on the radio as a PSA. We do have electricity 24/7, barring a storm, someone digging without calling the 800 number, vehicle hitting a power pole or (my favorite) an unannounced outage called to allow an extra large load go under or close to power lines that have to be disconnected.


68 posted on 07/25/2008 2:57:45 PM PDT by reformedliberal (Capitalism is what happens when governments get out of the way.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
GMTA — I've been thinking the same thing for some time.

Another technically-feasible alternative (price???) would be pumping compressed air into abandoned gas wells & using it to drive pneumantic-engine powered generators. This approach has been proposed for large-scale solar power already.

In sane times, a whole-system solution would be designed, and costed out; before large-scale implementation began.

69 posted on 07/25/2008 3:03:36 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Publius6961

“Typical transmission losses in CA - 50%”

That would mean that transmission losses in CA are over 6 times the average in the U.S. and Canada.


70 posted on 07/25/2008 3:10:29 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Publius6961
Typical transmission losses in CA - 50%

Electical line loss come no where near this amount. There are loss this great comparing energy in fuel to power plant output but they are mostly from the waste heat losses.

Supply and Disposition of Electricity, 1995 through 2006
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epates2.html


71 posted on 07/25/2008 3:11:37 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Publius6961
semiburied large water tanks can be used for pumped storage

Pumped storage is used in some place. A small pumped storage takes a lakes/river with significant head difference. There is no way tanks could be built large enough to have any economical application.

72 posted on 07/25/2008 3:15:51 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: mad_as_he$$
A lot depends on how dependable you want the system to be, how big a load your house represents, and how honest you are with your home insurance company.

But if you want to really be off the grid most of the time and have a safe and reliable electric system here is what I would expect to spend.

10,000 KW (peak demand when the sun is hot and everyone is indoors running everything) is what you need to run a decent sized house with most of the modern conveniences (air conditioning, deep freeze, two or more computers, electric range, microwave, and so on).

For a 10,000 KW modern wind turbine you are going to pay about $30K.

For battery backup for one you will need an out building to satisfy most insurance policies (add another $5K). The battery bank (regular car batteries will not do) with the charging system to maintain it properly is likely going to cost you $7 to $10K. This gets you 24 hours of backup power.

Your friend also had a solar system that if it was also able to run his home independent of the wind turbine I would expect to spend at least $30K (self installed).

Adding it all up comes to about $75K if you do most of the work yourself.

73 posted on 07/26/2008 4:36:11 AM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

Compressed air being used and is being developed.

http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2001/norton.htm


74 posted on 07/26/2008 5:51:34 AM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: thackney
Why in the world would there be 'unaccounted for' inputs into the system?


75 posted on 07/26/2008 5:59:01 AM PDT by GreenAccord (Bacon Akbar!)
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To: Pontiac
Ambitious to go after 220 VAC loads. Most off the grid people do not even try for that. Even the real die hards are living well below that standard according to MEN and other publications. Several around here that live on the fringe and do not had the grid available have decided that it was cheaper to run peak loads on a generator. That was back when diesel was a lot cheaper. Not sure how they feel about that idea now!!! You are correct about the insurance companies; they make it harder to live off the grid. I know of one set-up out in the outback here where the guy just bought two old truck trailers for next to nothing. Put the batteries in one and the generator and inverter in the other. He seems to be happy. He also has the advantage of generating hydro power from and irrigation system with has a significant drop on it so that really helps his generation during the Summer.

BTW my neighbor has 6 smaller wind turbines. He feels that it is more reliable than having one. I did not explain to him the multiple of parts vs failure rates of things. He is convicted.

76 posted on 07/26/2008 6:16:23 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil.)
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To: GreenAccord
(d) Data collection frame differences and nonsampling error. Derived for the diagram by subtracting the “T & D Losses” estimate from “T & D Losses and Unaccounted for” derived from Table 8.1.

Source:
Diagram 5. Electricity Flow, 2007 (more up to date data than the last time I copied it)
www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec8_3.pdf

See also:
EIA, Electric Power Annual
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epa/epa_sum.html
for more information (much more, somewhat difficult to find specific data but lots of information available)

77 posted on 07/26/2008 7:32:56 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

Interesting sites for pumped storage. First site is a slide show (large file).

http://www.asiapacificpartnership.org/PowerGenTF/AugustEEV/Seneca%20Pumped%20Storage%20Generation%20Plant.ppt

http://www.pseg.com/companies/fossil/plants/yardscreek.jsp


78 posted on 07/26/2008 7:56:33 AM PDT by Pontiac (Your message here.)
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To: Pontiac
Yes, pumped water storage works as a decent way to move power from off-peak generation to peak demand. Provide you have the area for a lake and elevation differences.


79 posted on 07/26/2008 9:08:54 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

totally cool picture. where is it?


80 posted on 07/26/2008 9:10:47 AM PDT by beebuster2000
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