Posted on 07/20/2008 7:23:09 AM PDT by wintertime
Government vouchers are certainly better than what we have now: Price-fixed, monopoly-cartel, government schools.
And...Yes, I have written and advocated the formation of private foundation that would award private vouchers to attend private schools. This would be the ideal solution.
Basically, I support all forms of charters, government and private vouchers, and tax credits provided they are leading us in the direction of a completely free market in education.
Most of the people I've seen advocating for tax credits want a credit against the taxes they pay, based on the amount of private school tuition they pay. In that case, tax credits would only be available for those wealthy enough to (1) pay taxes and (2) afford tuition before the tax credit. They wouldn't help the "poorest of the poor" in inner cities you have been speaking of.
Tax credits such as you describe would seem to be the least intrusive method, except for those who advocate simplifying the tax code and going to some sort of flat tax or consumption tax.
I worry about the private charities. Would they operate in only specific areas? If so, would they find areas such as yours that are apparently too sparsely populated and/or rural to have private schools currently?
Government vouchers are certainly better than what we have now: Price-fixed, monopoly-cartel, government schools.
Government vouchers might be an improvement, but for those who dislike wealth distribution and taxation for education, they would not be a real solution.
As I think I said above, my concern with government vouchers is largely that the amounts currently being given (where vouchers are being tried) are too low to pay for any but church-subsidized schools, and I'm not sure that churches would want to subsidize everyone.
Also, as others have mentioned, there are concerns that if government were subsidizing all education in this manner, it would make demands on private schools.
And...Yes, I have written and advocated the formation of private foundation that would award private vouchers to attend private schools. This would be the ideal solution.
Perhaps...contingent on adequate funding and enough private schools in all locations.
Basically, I support all forms of charters, government and private vouchers, and tax credits provided they are leading us in the direction of a completely free market in education.
Washington D.C. is a good place to study, then. They have many charters, as well as government and private vouchers operational there now.
Only a blind person would not have noticed that.
I only agree in part with your seperation position. As far as I am concerned, and I had this attitude long before I even became a parent, the federal government has no business in education. I truly believe it was one of the great failings of the Reagan Administration that he did not follow through and get rid of the federal DOE (or whatever it is called.)
Dealing with the school on the local level is really no different whether it is public or private. I much prefer dealing with the principal than the Superintendant or the school board, but I would rather do that than deal with Richmond, and I sure as heck don't want to have to deal with DC.
While the thought is in my head, and before I leave for work, I want to add one thing here about my contention there is already too much government involvement in private schools, something I learned at a very early age, 6 to be exact - I was in 1st grade.
I did not like school, not one bit and one morning I was able to sneak back down the stairs while everyone was marching up them and hide on a neighbors front stooop/porch. The principal called my mother -- not a good thing to do because she always went right back to bed as soon as I was out the door. It took them more than an hour to find me, and that was only because the neighbor happened to come out and finding me hiding in a corner.
Long story short, after my mother marched me into the office, Sister Mary Gemma, the principal, informed me that if I pulled a stunt like that again my father would be arrested for me not being in school. In all my 1st grader wisdom I informed her that my daddy couldn't be arrested because he was a policeman. That nonsense was shot down real quick because the law said if I was enrolled I HAD to attend.
I was in Catholic school, and that was 1966.
On that note, I must leave as I have to be to work in 15 minutes.
Just as the gun debate is framed by Gun Rights vs. Gun Control, the education debate is framed by Parental Rights vs. State Control of Education. The question is: Who should make decisions for the children? The parents or the state?
It is an important debate because, when the state controls education, it controls what children learn and the future of our country. The state does control education through compulsory attendance laws and state-run schools, which monopolize education and limit our choices in the private sector. You can read more at these links:
Laws of Competition explain Catholic school closings
Playing Monopoly with Our Children's Education
(Note: The second one is a PDF file.)
Many of the arguments in favor of state control of education are similar to arguments in favor of gun control: "It's for the children." "We have to make sure children are safe."
At the other side of the debate are parental rights: We believe parents have a natural right to make decisions for their children. We shouldn't be presumed guilty of a crime simply because we chose to educate our children outside the school system. We shouldn't be required to ask permission from the state to educate our children as we see fit.
Just as one doesn't have to be a gun owner to agree with the importance of the Second Amendment, you can teach in public school and still agree with the importance of parental rights: John Taylor Gatto was a school teacher for many years and was even named NYC Teacher of the Year, and he went on to write books criticizing the school system. Many homeschoolers follow the advice of Gatto, a retired schoolteacher.
I have trouble taking Gatto seriously, I suppose for the same reason wintertime criticizes many public school teachers.
When Gatto speaks of the public school system, he uses exceedingly scathing terms (I think "abusive" may be one of the kinder ones) yet he remained a part of the system long after he apparently made that discovery -- for THIRTY YEARS, in fact -- long enough to get his pension -- and now he seems to be making a pretty good living in addition to that (taxpayer funded) pension talking about how horrible the system he was a part of for 30 years is.
I'm sorry, but if he knew it was so bad, why did he remain a part of it for so long?
I ask that question all the time.
Why do teachers who KNOW that children with 3rd grade reading scores are being passed from grade to grade stay on the job?
Why do teachers who know that the system is utterly unworkable remain.
Answer: They will lie to parents, students, and themselves for a paycheck.
Gatto is a repentant liar who now has pension.
Oh, I disagree. I think he stayed with the system until he could get his pension, and then found another way to "cash in".
....and Gatto is the darling of many conservatives isn’t he?
ToT: You may find that many times, I agree with you, hence why I avoid posting to you directly.
The original objective, and still is, of my post was to answer some fair and poignant questions posed by one poster with the understanding that if/when equally fair questions are asked, they be answered.
I would hope that this happen. It is, after all, a just thing to do. I am completely comfortable with disagreement but a fair question deserves a fair answer.:)
That said, I like the Charter School idea. I know of a teacher of 40+ years who is finishing his career at a small charter school and has nothing but positive praise for it. My small rural county has but one comprehensive high school, so the opportunity for a charter is difficult. (The private school I attended closed, and the Board of Ed bought the campus. *insert conspiracy theory*)
Anyway, I am really looking forward to some fine discussions from fair questions!
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So?....Does playing the “gotcha” game to besmirch Gatto’s character make Gatto’s arguments less valid?
By the way, thought SoftballmominVA is a “conservative”?
Actually I had hoped you would respond to my #202. Perhaps you missed it?
If you'd like to post a thread of Gatto's writings, I'd be glad to address them.
By the way, weren't you just complaining because another poster mentioned you without pinging you? Perhaps you see that it's a really easy thing to do sometimes?
My sincerest apologies for not pining you. ( Really)
Thank you, Amelia, for bringing this to my attention.
I did miss it. Will look for it now.
It’s been a busy day out here in the blogosphere! :)
Tax credits such as you describe would seem to be the least intrusive method, except for those who advocate simplifying the tax code and going to some sort of flat tax or consumption tax.
Of the states offering tax credits, think only two allow private individuals to deduct private school tuition from their taxes, all the other states extend tax credits to **businesses** only.
I worry about the private charities. Would they operate in only specific areas? If so, would they find areas such as yours that are apparently too sparsely populated and/or rural to have private schools currently?
I believe these are state wide charities and cover rural and inner cities areas.
Government vouchers might be an improvement, but for those who dislike wealth distribution and taxation for education, they would not be a real solution.
Government schooling ranks as one of the **biggest** transfers of wealth and income distribution that I can think of. More is spent on government K-12 education ( federal, state, and local) than on the military.
Gee! At least with vouchers the money would be spent in the private market.
As I think I said above, my concern with government vouchers is largely that the amounts currently being given (where vouchers are being tried) are too low to pay for any but church-subsidized schools, and I'm not sure that churches would want to subsidize everyone.
Good point!
Personally, I am very wary of vouchers because they could become means for government control....Although we have not seen this on the college and university levels.
Also, as others have mentioned, there are concerns that if government were subsidizing all education in this manner, it would make demands on private schools.
Yep! My concern as well ( see above).
Perhaps...contingent on adequate funding and enough private schools in all locations.
Re: Private Voucher Foundations
We should rescue who we can, where we can. We don't let all the children drown on a sinking ship just because we can not save every child.
One of my objections with Sam Walton's private vouchers was that it was too thinly spread over too many cities. It it had been more concentrated we may have seen real and significant change within one city or one district.
Washington D.C. is a good place to study, then. They have many charters, as well as government and private vouchers operational there now.
Florida and Arizona too.
You guys are going in circles, nowhere, but fast.
Our schools are just as good or bad as the rest of our culture and society. There are good schools and bad schools, good teachers and bad, just as there are good police and bad police, good pols, and bad.
Name any institution you can think of, and there will be a wide range of positives and negatives.
What frustrates me most about some who post on FreeRepublic is that they sound like inhabitants of a college dorm sometimes.
I remember my husband telling me years ago about a guy in his college dorm lunchroom. The usual conversations were going on about unfair grading, not enough time to finish assignments, professors they couldn’t understand, difficulty in getting a date, not having enough money to spend, not having a car, etc.
This guy slammed his fist on the table, then stood up, and yelled at the top of his lungs, BITCH, BITCH, BITCH! ALL YOU GUYS EVER DO IS BITCH!!!!
Then he stormed out of the room. This happened in the Baker House dorm lunchroom, at MIT, in 1958. Some things never change!
Stop the bitching about the state of our schools, and get to work at turning our culture around.
So your opinion is that the tax credits should basically be used for funding vouchers?
I don't think Florida can give tax breaks to individuals, since Florida doesn't have a state income tax.
More is spent on government K-12 education ( federal, state, and local) than on the military. Gee! At least with vouchers the money would be spent in the private market.
That makes some sense, considering the number of children there are in this country, and that the expenditures are on a federal, state, and local level.
Much of the money would still go for the same things though...such as utilities, buying books & paying teachers. The checks would just come from a different source. :-)
Personally, I am very wary of vouchers because they could become means for government control....Although we have not seen this on the college and university levels.
I thought we had to some extent...I'm thinking admissions, military recruiters on campus (not that I object to that one) and Title IX sports....IIRC, there are other examples but none I can think of right off the bat.
We should rescue who we can, where we can. We don't let all the children drown on a sinking ship just because we can not save every child.
I agree that there's no reason not to offer alternatives now, especially when the private sector or charities can do so - Sam Walton, Bill & Melinda Gates (even though they are liberal) and others have made strides in that direction.
My point is that if you dissolve the entire public school system, you must have provisions for every child.
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