Posted on 07/07/2008 8:16:52 PM PDT by markomalley
Congress should repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" law because the presence of gays in the military is unlikely to undermine the ability to fight and win, according to a new study released by a California-based research center.
The study was conducted by four retired military officers, including the three-star Air Force lieutenant general who in early 1993 was tasked with implementing President Clinton's policy that the military stop questioning recruits on their sexual orientation.
"Evidence shows that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly is unlikely to pose any significant risk to morale, good order, discipline or cohesion," the officers states.
To support its contention, the panel points to the British and Israeli militaries, where it says gay people serve openly without hurting the effectiveness of combat operations.
Undermining unit cohesion was a determining factor when Congress passed the 1993 law, intended to keep the military from asking recruits their sexual orientation. In turn, service members can't say they are gay or bisexual, engage in homosexual activity or marry a member of the same sex.
Supporters of the ban contend there is still no empirical evidence that allowing gays to serve openly won't hurt combat effectiveness.
"The issue is trust and confidence" among members of a unit, said Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis, who retired in 1993 after working on the issue for the Army. When some people with a different sexual orientation are "in a close combat environment, it results in a lack of trust," he said.
The study was sponsored by the Michael D. Palm Center at the University of California at Santa Barbara, which said it picked the panel members to portray a bipartisan representation of the different service branches.
According to its Web site, the Palm Center "is committed to keeping researchers, journalists and the general public informed of the latest developments in the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy debate." Palm himself was "a staunch supporter of civil rights in the gay community," the site says.
Two of the officers on the panel have endorsed Democratic candidates since leaving the military - Army Lt. Gen. Robert Gard, who supports Barack Obama, and Marine Corps Gen. Hugh Aitken, who backed Clinton in 1996.
Air Force Lt. Gen. Robert Minter Alexander, a Republican, was assigned in 1993 to a high-level panel established by the Defense Department to examine the issue of gays in the military. At one point, he signed an order that prohibited the military from asking a recruit's sexual orientation.
Alexander said at the time he was simply trying to carry out the president's orders and not take a position. But he now believes the law should be repealed because it assumes the existence of gays in the military is disruptive to units even though cultural attitudes are changing.
Further, the Defense Department and not Congress should be in charge of regulating sexual misconduct within the military, he said.
"Who else can better judge whether it's a threat to good order and discipline?" Alexander asked.
Navy Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan said he had no opinion on the issue when he joined the panel, having never confronted it in his 35-year military career. A self-described Republican who opposes the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war, Shanahan said he was struck by the loss of personal integrity required by individuals to carry out "don't ask, don't tell."
"Everyone was living a big lie - the homosexuals were trying to hide their sexual orientation and the commanders were looking the other way because they didn't want to disrupt operations by trying to enforce the law," he said.
Sure it does. Showering together in the military is rare, compared to what the average civilian images. Gyms all over the world have group showers, that's not unique to the military. Basic training is like two months, AIT varies, but many no longer have group showers, and it's more rare every year. Large training areas often have them, which you can use for a few days, but as you said, most of that time is spent baby-wiping yourself down in the field, where I'm assuming you would notice if someone was staring at your junk while you were wiping it off.
That said, the vast majority of any military persons time is spent in their own room, or with a roommate, showering on your own. The big open bays are a thing of the past, but that's what a lot of civilians think of.
Any of the women I worked with had to put up with a lot worse, from time to time, when facilities were scarce. Guys worry about the rare, off chance that a gay person might be nearby while they're half clothed. Try being a female and needing to take a leak during a convoy halt, under a poncho, with 100 horny guys 100 feet away. I've felt genuinely embarrassed for my chromosome match on an occasion or two, and I just can't imagine that men in the military would ever have to endure what women seem to be able to shoulder.
For better or worse, what you've said is true. The young men and women enlisting today, and their future officers currently enrolled at Annapolis and West Point, well, they've been raised in an environment where homosexuality is looked at as no big deal. They've most likely had acquaintances, friends and possibly family members come out of the closet. They've seen acceptance become part of the mainstream culture and they've seen people ostracized who've held negative views toward homosexuality.
The military is a reflection of society. As society becomes more tolerant of the gay lifestyle (and it has), the military will follow suit. The old guard will try and resist this change but it is going to come. Eventually, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" will no longer be military policy. It will be replaced by something more accepting of gays.
This isn't a statement of my opinion one way or another on the issue. This is just my observation as someone currently serving my country.
Any guy who gets hot and bothered by a woman pissing (whether under a poncho or not) has some serious issues.
Why are you embarrassed by your "chromosome match?" I can't seem to get embarrassed over being white, male or heterosexual. If someone acts like a pig; it's their issue, not mine.
Maybe paying some shakedown money to Jesse and Al will help you get over your guilt. Then you can have Barbara sing for you and everything will be swell.
Now, lets get serious. Look at the parks, public bathrooms and beaches frequented by homosexual males. Is it too much of a stretch to believe allowing homosexuals to serve openly will result in similar problems?
Before you say the military will keep good order and discipline, everybody believed the civil authorities would do the same. What are the results?
Nah. Forget it. Lets do it your way. America can fall, just like Rome. It doesn't matter anyway. Cause you wouldn't understand.
Guess what. You can be straight and be HIV positive too.
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“Straight” men who are HIV positive are 99% IV drug users, the other 1% are lying.
It is VERY difficult for a man to contract HIV from heterosexual sex.
I agree with everything you said!
I did. For the most part, nothing was done, because in most cases it was my word against theirs. Predators always make sure there aren’t other witnesses around when they make their moves. The most that was done, other than my defensive threats, was that security would make unannounced raids in berthing trying to catch people in bed together. Later in my career, the homosexuals became more bold, and for some reason no one could touch them in spite of numerous reports.
In my entire career I’ve never seen a blanket party. I guess things are much different now.
If this “study” is accurate, then we should also quit seperating men and women with regards to housing and latrines. If gays are allowed to share dwellings and showers with the sex that they are attracted to, then straights should also be housed with the opposite sex.
“It may not be a legit study, but I work with college students — so people of military age — and they are exceedingly unfazed by people’s sexual orientation,”
Your personal experience with college students is very disconnected from soldiers lives and attitudes. To even try to compare them shows a great disrespect for our nations finest men and women. I’d bet you are a female and made this statement based purely on emotions. If you really agree with this study, would you be uncomfortable if I joined you in the shower?
“Uphold the fraternization rules and gays should be able to serve.”
Let me know when you are planning your next shower and I’ll be over to join you.
“So your husband has to lie to serve with homosexuals, but if he has to admit the truth he can’t serve? Interesting.”
Another female speaks up without any true logic regarding this issue. How about it, when you have your next shower give me a call and I’ll come over and join you. That wouldn’t make you uncomfortable would it? LaurenD’s husband speaks the truth regarding this issue and you would be wise to listen to the folks that have actual experience in the service and have been in the lower enlisted housing/showering facilities.
“Some people happen to be homosexual.”
That is the fault in your premise. They don’t just happen to be homosexual, they chose to be homosexual. If it weren’t a choice, then why does the gay community still fight for the ability to adopt? If their natural state precludes them from procreating, why would they still have a desire to become parents? Which course of action is their nature when they have a natural desire to become parents? Are they denying their nature by participating in activities that make it impossible to procreate or are they denying their nature when they want to parent?
Because the other issue is very, very real.
And it is a serious morale negative.
There is no vaccine for hiv and many say there never will be one.
As wagglebee says, would you get on a plane knowing that many of the parts might be defective?
“Sure it does. Showering together in the military is rare, compared to what the average civilian images.”
Every duty station where I served had group showers for lower enlisted males. After active duty, every reserve location that I went to had group showers for lower enlisted males. If what you are saying is true, then I would have to say that a heck of a lot of money has been spent in the last few years to change that situation.
I’m not saying that I don’t believe you, I’m just saying that my own experiences state otherwise.
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Anyone who thinks that homosexuals behave as heterosexuals should visit Provincetown, MA.
Those activities probably passed about the same time the Shellback initiation, Chiefs initiation etc went out the door.
The BP was (probably) cruel and unusual punishment but it was effective.
Not many repeat offenders, unless they were into pain and enjoyed getting scrubbed with an extremely hard bristled brush.
Referred to as ‘Deck Plate Justice’, no officers, no Senior Enlisted, just the guys taking care of business.
The only time I had seen such shenanigans was always in conjunction with unwanted sexual advances, thievery and COMPLETE scroungery.
The ‘punishment’ wasn’t inflicted on suspects, they were caught in the act etc.....
Has it escaped your attention that THIS article is supportive of homosexuals? When it was posted, FReeper markomalley put "MEGA-BARF ALERT" in parenthesis, but the agenda of the article was UNCHANGED. Free Republic does not allow articles from certain sources (this generally has more to do with the sources request than it does with FR) and some articles are pulled because Jim Robinson or the moderators do not feel that they are appropriate, but I am unaware of any general prohibition that you describe.
I would challenge you to find an article from the mainstream media about homosexuality that is not positive. The FACT is that the media has been pushing the homosexual agenda for decades and this is done in spite of the fact that it is an inherently depraved and dangerous lifestyle.
You are fairly new here and you say that your husband was banned, are you sure that you aren't on here pushing some leftist agenda?
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Actually, your comment is the propaganda technique. You are attempting to normalize the abnormal.
Anyone who has even briefly looked at the subject knows that gays are notoriously promiscuous.
Promiscuity is the factor that leads to health problems and monetary costs cited below.
· A1998 study in Seattle found that 10 percent of HIV-positive men admitted they engaged in unprotected anal sex, and the percentage doubled in 2000. According to a study of men who attend gay "circuit" parties, the danger at such events is even greater. Ten percent of the men surveyed expected to become HIV-positive in their lifetime. Researchers discovered that 17 percent of the circuit party attendees surveyed were already HIV positive. Two thirds of those attending circuit parties had oral or anal sex, and 28 percent did not use condoms.
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Exactly right, xzins.
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