Posted on 07/05/2008 6:45:22 AM PDT by Fennie
I'm not sure that you can say that Israel was an 'ally' of the US during that period in history. Most of the weapons systems in the IDF inventory were either French (aircraft) or British (tanks). The American-built equipment that they had was largely purchased on the world arms market or smuggled. Also, Eisenhower had forced the Israelis out of Suez in '56 when he yanked support from the French/British component of the operation to regain the Suez Canal.
Putting it all together, Israel might have had a motive to 'blind' US intelligence to their strategic intentions. I go back & forth about the "Liberty Incident", but I'm not prepared to dismiss the possibility that it was intentional.
I used to think as you do, but I did extensive research. The Ambassador's denial was critically responsible for this incident, in a war zone where Egyptian vessels routinely false-flagged. Also, look into it and see how low-tech the Israeli forces were in 1967. They did not have the sophisticated U.S. technology they possess today.
There have been some first hand accounts by Liberty’s crew of how the Israelis first scouted the ship and then attacked despite desperate attempts by the crew to identify the ship as U.S.
These accounts convinced me. I don’t think I have a tin-foil hat mentality, but simply a realistic viewpoint of the perceived needs of Israel to maintain their security. These needs aren’t necessarily the same as the desires of the U.S. government.
Our Government’s ‘official’ accounts and investigations are less convincing because they take into account the diplomatic interests of the government in preventing full disclosure.
As another poster pointed out earlier in the thread, aircraft have occaissionaly misidentified ships & even attacked them in previous conflicts. I also wonder how much training, if any, the IAF had in ship identification when their arab opponents had little or nothing in the way of a Navy. Point is I can still allow the possibility that it was a mistake.
This is why I turn to 'motive'. I wonder if there are any uniformed military men left in either the Israeli or US Armed forces who were actually in the service in '67? Point is, there aren't likely to be plowing any new ground since the principals are long dead.
You revealed the possible motive with your previous post. Israel obviously remembered how the U.S. pulled the plug on its support of Israel just at the time when it had overrun Egypt in 1956.
The U.S. has supported Israel but has also often used its support to restrain Israel from completing its strategic and tactical plans because of ‘Big Power’ politics which may not support a complete victory scenario with Israel in Cairo.
Remember our state department is full of ‘big picture’ proponents of a realpolitik that expresses itself as anti-U.S. and anti-Israel policies.
Preventing any unwanted U.S. intervention that would frustrate the Israeli attack is a good reason to ‘blind’ the U.S. intelligence by removing the Liberty from the scene.
I agree with you. I am not sure what motivated the attack. I am pro Israel,and have always been puzzled by this.
One of my best friends (CTR) was on the Liberty when it was attacked, and he was transferred to my duty station when it was over. He does not believe it was a mistake.
USN40VET ex CTR
I wonder if people would twist themselves into pretzels to justify a similar cowardly attack by a different country.
I believe that the attack was intentional for reasons which remain obscure. I have read extensively non-classified material that I could get my hands on. It would be very interesting to see the USS Liberty’s log book for that day.
However, what bothers me most (and what makes me think that there was complicity at the highest levels) was the 6th Fleet actions (or lack there of). I understand (I have not seen the orders or msgs) that our carriers launched aircraft which were called back by orders from Washington. LBJ saying that he did not want to start a war over a stinking shipe). I also understand that six planes which were on the flight line in Italy armed with nuclear weapons, were rearmed and launched to support the USS Liberty, and they were also called by a direct order from Washington.
On a very practical level, ships while under way monitor several standard frequencies. For example, the would be a frequency which no on is supposed to transmit on except in emergencies when aid is required. The USS Liberty must have been transmitting on many frequencies during the extended attack.
Also don’t forget that the Isralis attacked with torpedo boats after the main attack had happened. They were ultimately unsuccessful in sinking the ship, but i believe the got one torpedo hit.
This continued attack, with planes returning, and subsequent torpedo boat attacks show that this was not just some hotshot pilot’s mistake, but a planned sustained operation. The israeli operation center had to know what was going on an the day progressed, long before the torpedo boats were sent out.
The motives for the actions are apparently unable to be determined at the present time for whatever reason.
Possibly because of the lengths some people will go to claim that the Liberty was "accidentally" attacked, despite the accounts of the sailors and the pilots.
Besides, they new talking point is that the Liberty desrved to get attacked because they were spying.
Actually, the Liberty survivors would be in in their very late 50’s to mid 60’s now, some possibly a few years older. There are many Liberty survivors still living, including one of my best friends.
The bottom line is that it sure sounds like the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing.
U.S.S. Liberty [NSA declassified more documents on 40th anniversary]
Follow-up PING to last month’s discussion!
Yes, you make the points. I acknowledge that this is the very best argument that you can make that the attack was deliberate — that the IDF sustained the attack.
The generally accepted version of events says that the Liberty fired first when the IDF PT boats approached. The Israelis claim that one of their pilots radioed the PT commander asking that the PT’s check the identity of the Liberty prior to attacking. Apparently he feared the ship might be Soviet. We only have the Israelis word for this.
The problem I have with the Israeli explanation — and where the evidence supports your case — is that it shouldn’t have been necessary to fire torpedoes at the Liberty if you now thought the vessel’s ID was in question. They could have suppressed the Liberty’s ‘50 cals & withdrawn.
The Israelis say that once the PT’s were fired upon, they concluded that the Liberty was actually a known Egyptian vessel that was false-flagging.
As I say, I go back & forth over it. I think the Israelis had a strong motive to sink the Liberty, or put it out of action.
I have to laugh when LBJ allegedly said that he “wasn’t going to start a war over a stinking boat”. That’s precisely what he did during the Tonkin Gulf Incident. Gotta give him credit for learning from his mistakes, I guess.
Careful bud, where do you think you are? America? ;=)
“our fault?”
Since when did we cede “our” rights to freedom of the seas to another government?
And what was the benefit of a half-assed attack on an American ship, when Israel was partially dependant on the US to forestall a Soviet invasion?
The USS Liberty was flying the Stars & Stripes, big as the state of Texas. And the Israeli pilots strafed our sailors when they were in the water. Mistake my pink buttocks!
There are also NSA tapes which recorded the Israeli pilots discussing the attack having no idea they had hit an American ship. More importantly the headline is misleading. This was not to dredge up the controversy over the Liberty it was to avoid a replay which all sides can agree is desirable.
I guess the killing of Pat Tilman was a conspiracy also since accidents never happen in war.
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