Michael Reagan: Liberty Wins a Big One

So you did react with emotion. Toldjaso.

Vanders, you are wrong. As you should have guessed by now, I have more than a passing interest in Europe, have lived there a good part of it, and am married to an European who was born the day of the German invasion. Our neighbors and friends in rural France saw us as compatriots against the "foreigners", Parisians, who invade the countryside, so perhaps the tag of prejudice doesn't fit us quite so well as you might wish. So, yes, I have a perspective and can see differences apparently outside your ken.

You are wrong about France. We know France intimately, have had a place in France for most of our lives, lived there long, and know French culture likely better than you. French folks we know have the same problems with guns as your brethren in the UK. Their whole ideas and concepts reflect the same myopia as do you. They have a great problem with gun ownership, do however allow some weaponry like a shotgun for their concept of hunting, and to have them as tools of self-defense is not so likely. My Belge friends and acquaintances go apoplectic at the sight of a gun. Do yours?

You illustrate my contention that what appears to be a phobia to you and peers is ingrained thanks to the socialistic policies extant in Europe and the UK. You do not see it as a phobia and see it as natural and logical and you cannot see how we don't agree. That, to me, is testimony the socialist handlers there have done a right decent job of it.

Have you handled guns? Have you considered how nice it would be next time a burglar bursts into your abode and threatens violence festooned with a legal bat or club? Can you grasp that a goodly number of us millions of Americans are quite comfortable and safe with self-defense?

Lastly, what is an assault weapon? I have no weapons with which I would consider assaulting, but have some for defense which might scare the gizzard out of gun fearers. I have plenty. We are free to have plenty here, all we want. Guess that isn't the case in your parts.

I am not considered dangerous to anyone or by anyone except some who would attempt for me harm.

“If this is the main point of your argument, you are conflagurating two different issues. Gun ownership and crime. They are about the same as car ownership and crime. After all, many criminals use cars in the commission of their crimes also.”

No, the people on this board are conflagurating the two issues. I didn’t mention gun ownership first. I was trying to discuss the reasons why there is so much crime, and why it seems to be increasing.

“I as a citizen am not overly concerned with why a criminal does what he does.”

That’s an extraordinary statement. If you are a citizen you should be immensely interested in why crime is on the increase in your society. After all it indirectly affects you, even if you are never a victim of it. If crime increases the bills for the police, the justice system, the prison system etc all go up, which means ultimately your taxes go up (or they stay the same and the nation does without something else). If shoplifting goes up, then stores compensate by putting prices up, which affects you again. If robberies increase, then your insurance payments go up. Crime is very anti-social. Its very destructive.

“We have created a system in this country whereby people are taught in our schools and by our federal and state government’s actions that all people are entitled to free healthcare, pay without work etc.. and you ask why we have criminals? It’s because they have grown up in an environment where they are told they are entitled to things, that’s why!”

I agree that is certainly a big part of the problem. People think that the world owes them a living. When they discover it doesnt, the temptation there is just to take.

I would also put forward the kind of “get-rich quick” materialist mentality that we as a society are pushing. Why should people study hard, work hard, scrimp and save, when you can get far more money by picking six numbers at random in a lottery? Or acting like a complete jerk on some reality TV show? People have the attitude “Why should you have more than I have, its not fair!” To which the answer is “Because I worked hard for it, you waster!”

"That’s an extraordinary statement. If you are a citizen you should be immensely interested in why crime is on the increase in your society."

You missed the point I was trying to make. If we as a society concentrated on arming ourselves so that we are not victims of crime and punish those harshly who commit crimes then we don't have to get into this naval gazing of why the criminal does what he does. That does not mean some type of re-creation of the movie Midnight Express. What it means is that the death penalty should be used properly. It means that if someone commits a crime with a gun they should automatically get years tacked on. In most cities, the gun charge is the first thing thrown out in the plea bargain!! I don't care to know the mind of violent criminals or child rapists. I just care that they are locked up never to prey upon the public again.

From how you talk, it appears that you are not an American citizen. If that is true, you probably have a distorted view of crime in America. Crime is no worse here than in places like Britian. The only difference is that over there, criminals use baseball bats and knives to carry out their crimes. I don't think it's a morally superior position to say that crime isn't as bad in Britian because their criminals just beat people to death instead of shooting them.

“You missed the point I was trying to make. If we as a society concentrated on arming ourselves so that we are not victims of crime and punish those harshly who commit crimes then we don’t have to get into this naval gazing of why the criminal does what he does. That does not mean some type of re-creation of the movie Midnight Express. What it means is that the death penalty should be used properly. It means that if someone commits a crime with a gun they should automatically get years tacked on. In most cities, the gun charge is the first thing thrown out in the plea bargain!! I don’t care to know the mind of violent criminals or child rapists. I just care that they are locked up never to prey upon the public again.”

Ah I see what you are getting at now. Sorry I misunderstood.
See here in the UK, where guns are traditionally very rarely used, crimes committed with guns “stand out” very much. Gun crime is NEVER taken lightly, and people who use guns to commit crimes are always punished to the full extent of the law, which of course acts as a significant deterrent. A criminal with a gun knows that he will be hunted down, he knows that “all men are against him”.

Now, I sense that is changing, which I personally regret. Can you see that in a society where most people are not armed, an increase in gun crime, (or even the numbers of police carrying guns), is seen as a sign that the war against crime is being lost?

I digress. I wasn’t wanting to get into the rights and wrongs of guns.

I don’t think of this as “navel gazing”, I think of it more as good tactics. Harshness of punishment does act as a deterrent (although increasing the likelihood of being caught is significantly better) but if we can stop people becoming criminals in the first place then that surely must be better than having to go through all the effort of catching them, prosecuting them, suppressing them, imprisoning them, etc etc. It would be far cheaper for us a society. It would even be better for them.

“From how you talk, it appears that you are not an American citizen. If that is true, you probably have a distorted view of crime in America.”

LOL. No doubt!

“Crime is no worse here than in places like Britian.”

Probably not.

“The only difference is that over there, criminals use baseball bats and knives to carry out their crimes. I don’t think it’s a morally superior position to say that crime isn’t as bad in Britian because their criminals just beat people to death instead of shooting them.”

I dont think I ever actually ascribed to a “morally superior position of saying that crime isn’t as bad in Britain”, but anyway..if I as a UK citizen have a distorted view of crime in the US (which is certainly true...I have spent some time in America but most of my knowledge is still determined by TV news, Jerry Springer and Hollywood) then the same applies to you as a US citizen with your viewpoint of crime in the UK, and that statement pretty much proves it. Violent crime in Britain isn’t as bad because criminals beat people to death rather than shoot them, it isnt as bad because there is simply less of it (although we are catching you up).

There is another factor. Violent crime gets all the attention, but the fact remains that the majority of crime is committed against property (shoplifting, theft etc).

"I dont think I ever actually ascribed to a “morally superior position of saying that crime isn’t as bad in Britain”,"

I didn't mean this statement to be against you as an individual, but more or less people that believe this in general. To be sure, they don't put it this way, but they believe that societies such as Britian are safer and better because of handgun bans.

"Violent crime in Britain isn’t as bad because criminals beat people to death rather than shoot them, it isnt as bad because there is simply less of it (although we are catching you up)."

Actually stats don't exactly bear this out. For one thing, the way each country reports crime is a little different. For instance, shootings such as suicides and justified killings (such as someone being killed while trying to burglarize a home) are reported as violent crime stats. A suicide has nothing to do with the tool you use. It's more cultural. Japan has a very strict handgun but a high suicide rate. Switzerland on the other hand has very high gun ownership but low suicide rates.

If we in the U.S. reported crime stats the same way Britian does we would be very similar per capita in commission of crimes. Personally, I believe that when these gun bans in large cities start falling by the wayside, we will have less crime than Britian. John Lott's research has proved this out. In the cities with the strictest gun control is where the crime is highest. In the majority of these cities, I believe the relaxed gun control measures that are going to be forced on them is either going to have no effect or reduce crime with the net impact of less crime throughout America.

“I didn’t mean this statement to be against you as an individual, but more or less people that believe this in general. To be sure, they don’t put it this way, but they believe that societies such as Britian are safer and better because of handgun bans.”

Its a cause and effect disconnect. Britain has low murder/fatal violence rates. Britain also has strict gun control laws. Therefore the one MUST be because of the other. Well, no not neccesarily. Strict gun control does have some effect, but I personally don’t think its anywhere near as significant as is commonly believed by my compatriots. Like you I believe crime is primarily cultural. And of course, that culture is changing.

“Personally, I believe that when these gun bans in large cities start falling by the wayside, we will have less crime than Britian. John Lott’s research has proved this out. In the cities with the strictest gun control is where the crime is highest. In the majority of these cities, I believe the relaxed gun control measures that are going to be forced on them is either going to have no effect or reduce crime with the net impact of less crime throughout America.”

I would suspect that if gun controls are relaxed in these very violent cities you will actually see a significant increase in deaths by violence, AT FIRST. What will be happening there is a change of culture, and that takes time. Of course, such an increase will be immediately siezed upon as evidence of failure of the measure, but I concur, in time I think you would see a fall in violent crime (or at least no net increase).

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