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To: sobieski

The Poles were the first to fight Hitler because Poland was the first country that Hitler attempted to conquer. The Poles did not make a decision to fight Germany; rather, they attempted a last stand. This was over in a few weeks.

Poland didn’t have a collaboration government because the Germans didn’t give it one. Poland was part of “Greater Germany.” Had the Germans wanted a Polish puppet state, they would have made one. This had nothing to do with the desires of Poles.

There were more capital crimes for non-Jews in Poland generally than in occupied Western Europe or Scandinavia. Poland was under martial law. The Germans didn’t have a lot of sentimental feelings about the Poles, whom they regarded as slaves, beneath contempt, etc. That is why the occupation of Poland was particularly harsh.

The Polish Jews weren’t so afraid when the Germans came because they thought the Poles were much more dangerous to them than the Germans.

Most of the Jews (a few hundred) who escaped the Sobibor uprising were then murdered by Polish partisans. There were many other incidents like that.

As I said before, the people who actually worked the concentration camps and ghettos were mostly not German. In Poland, much of the Holocaust staff was naturally made up of Poles.

A large number of Jewish survivors who returned in 1945 and 1946 after the war was over were then murdered by Poles.

So no, I don’t think your views are so balanced.


405 posted on 06/23/2008 4:48:41 PM PDT by buck jarret
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To: buck jarret
The Polish Jews weren’t so afraid when the Germans came because they thought the Poles were much more dangerous to them than the Germans.

That's going too far. Some Jews had good memories of Imperial Germany or of German treatment in the First World War. Those who were more informed about Hitler took a different view.

It was also the case that blackmailers and informants could identify Jews who the Germans couldn't find. But it's simply not the case that most Jews would think Poland more dangerous than the Third Reich.

As I said before, the people who actually worked the concentration camps and ghettos were mostly not German. In Poland, much of the Holocaust staff was naturally made up of Poles.

What do you mean by "Holocaust staff" anyway? There were German troops and police. There were Polish prisoners and police who participated. There were prisoners from other countries in the camps. There were also Jewish prisoners and police.

Collaborators played a role in virtually every occupied country. Jewish collaborators played an important role in Eastern Europe. But the Germans were the ones with the weapons and the power.

406 posted on 06/23/2008 5:04:29 PM PDT by x
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To: buck jarret

Wow, so wrong.

Poland was not first attacked, but first to fight. You forget Austria and Czechoslovakia. The only country to fight from the first to last day of the war. You might think that meant they didn’t agree w/ the Nazi ideology, since they were not in an alliance with them (like Italy or Romania)

Poland was split, and the General Government was not incorporated into the Reich as was Western Poland, known as Wartegau. It did not have a puppet government, but rather was administered directly by the Nazis through their Gen. Hans Frank. So we see Poland was not an ally of the Nazis, and uniquely had no occupation governement. Again, clearly the Poles were enemies of the Nazis.

Poland had the only (exile) government bureau specifically set up to help the Jews (Zegota). It was a capital crime to help the Jews (if the Poles spent the war just persecuting Jews, why need that sort of law?). The largest number of “Righteous of the Gentiles’ in Israel are Polish.

Poland was the largest fighting force in the war after the USSR, USA and UK. Over six million Polish citizens died in the war. 20% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Polish. The German code (Enigma) was broken by Poles and given the the British even before the War began.

The Polish (exile) government sent an eye-witness to meet w/ President Roosevelt and Supreme Court Justice Morgenthau to ring the bell among the Allies. Morgenthau famously said he couldn’t believe Karski’s report. The Polish Ambassador told him the young officer was telling his eye-witness report. Morgenthau replied what he meant is that he just couldn’t comprehend the magnitude of what he just heard.

The Jewish community threw itself into the defense following September 1; check the Katyn list. Not sure why you think the Jews weren’t concerned over the Germans; I think you are confused with Jewish support for the Soviets. Read Jan T. Gross’ book “Revolution from Abroad” which has a section “A Friendly Reception” about how Jews (among other non-Polish minorities) greeted the Soviets w/ kisses, parades and bread and salt.

So yes, some Poles did collaborate w/ the Nazis; true of every society in every war. Poland’s balance is heavily positive, with over six million Polish citizens killed, 90+ percent of Warsaw and 60+ percent of Poznan destroyed among other catastrophic war losses.

You lack a balanced understanding of the post-war period. Unfortunatley, Jewish support and collaboration with the Soviets extended to the post-war period. The (Communist) Interior Minister Berman himself agreed that the leadership of the security services were almost all Jewish. His brother Albert was saved from the Ghetto by Zegota. He repaid them by arresting members of Zegota b/c they were organized by the London government.

Berman himself in an interview with Teresa Toranska (in the book “Them”) notes the extent of the collaboration, saying that there was a large concentration of Jews in certain institutions, a necesary evil ‘because the Polish intelligentsia was boycotting us’ (the Communists). Doesn’t that define collaboration?

In the same book, Stefan Staszewski (a high-ranking commuists whose parents died in Treblinka) said that following Stalin’s death and the reorganization of the party “the Jews were one group (in the party) which didn’t feel threatened at all” Roman Werfel, high ranking party figure and grandson of a rabbi, told Toranska “I can see now that there were too many Jews in the Secret Service”

The moral? Collaboration happens, sadly. No community is defined solely by its collaborators.


434 posted on 06/28/2008 9:26:49 AM PDT by sobieski
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