Persecuted for having a committed relationship as
part of the new and everlasting covenant? Joy book
poofers forced to flee? God-squad corrected your
double cousin and reassigned you to first rate mate?
Remember to Keep Sweet!
Posted on 05/27/2008 12:30:59 PM PDT by Alice in Wonderland
CART HORSE.
If Senator Reid is behind any anti-polygamy activities then there must be something ordained of God about polygamy.
Nope.
Horseshoes trail #1: Sexual abuse of minors (part of original TX criminal investigation warrant)
Horseshoes trail #2: Bigamy (part of original TX criminal investigatiion warrant)
Any evidence collected at the scene of warrant under either of those 2 investigations is part of the "cart."
There's also the "second wave" of evidence. Surely you've seen the TV program "COPS" where somebody is pulled over & during an ensuing search of the vehicle drugs are found. (What? Do you think such cops had to wait for a warrant that id'd people in the vehicle & id'd the drugs?)
Or state-based seat belt laws. Many/most states don't have officers pull you over for failing to wear a seat belt. But if you are pulled over for a broken tail light or speeding, etc. & you are observed to not being wearing a seat belt, that is an additional charge/ticket.
The initial investigation is the initial horsetrail #1; ensuing evidence--including what a law enforcement sees, etc.--is the cart.
From the article: U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman told the Deseret News earlier this month that his office has tried to pursue mafia-style racketeering, corruption and child-bride trafficking cases but has been stymied by a lack of witnesses and other evidence to establish probable cause. In San Angelo, Tom Green County prosecutors have said they are still interested in pursuing their own charges, which could include bigamy. The Texas Attorney General's Office has been named a special prosecutor for any criminal cases that may come out of the investigation.
Yup, child-bride trafficking and bigamy. (Why are so many fathers & monogamists on these threads protecting child traffickers & bigamists?)
Persecuted for having a committed relationship as
part of the new and everlasting covenant? Joy book
poofers forced to flee? God-squad corrected your
double cousin and reassigned you to first rate mate?
Remember to Keep Sweet!
I meant that the forcible removal of 450 kids from their parents, without evidence of actual or imminent abuse, was the cart set before the horse of a proper investigation.
Well, CPS acts on distinct standards than law enforcement folks.
CPS plays "prevent defense" and acts to try to prevent the cycle of alleged abuse from continuing.
Whereas law enforcement folks & the prosecutors "plays offense" & takes more time to build a case, including evidence that might be collected during a CPS action.
By its very nature with distinct standards & actions, CPS will usually be the "head horse" and the law enforcement folks will act in part as its "cart"--collecting additional evidence along the trail before charging anybody.
Yes CPS acts on “distinct standards.” And sometimes DESPITE them. As the Court has adjudicated.
Look at all the attention a hoax phone call got.
Because it was all set up beforehand.
LONG beforehand
In other words, CPS ought to be able to break into anybody's home, steal their kids and think up a rationale later.
You folks live in a scary universe.
In my universe, these agencies have to abide by the LAW!
Even if it's an illegal action?
You know, you sound like the libs who after celebs starting getting HIV/AIDS, would say, "anybody" could get HIV/AIDS. Well, "anybody" can if they are engaging in risky behavior (exchange of body fluids via drugs or sex).
But, beyond that, no.
Accusations of abuse usually don't just jump out randomly to "anybody." They usually arise out of (a) reality; and (b) custody disputes...of which some of these are accusations are false. Other than, random accusations are of such random origin, and also places the accuser at risk of legal/civil action if indeed the accusations are false. (Most people aren't willing to put their lies on the line at such a cost).
You folks live in a scary universe.
The disbelievers in fLDS’ designs upon young girls would have us join them in their disbelief of all of...
...the eye-witness testimony from ex-members & members,
...its long-time historical multi-generational practice of “placement child brides…”
...its criminal justice track record, including the aiding & abetting that usually includes parents and others who adhere to the “prophet’s” orders,
...media reports, and the like surrounding this group.
In my universe, these agencies have to abide by the LAW!
What I love about posters like you is that you can stare at a cult square on, hearing that they've…
…trafficked minors across state borders and even across Canada;
…sexually abused minors;
…coerced them into bedding an already married man after a mock wedding;
..."escorted" most of their teen boys out of their communities ("lost boys") to "weed out" competition;
…coached kids & wives to deceive authorities or just plain leave them in the dark as to issues like age, who their parents are, who their unionized husband is, etc.; etc, etc, etc...
…and your conclusion? Well, it's not the cultists that have either violated the law or planted cultural & illegal "poisonous trees"; why it's governmental agencies that are guilty of violations & have planted a "poisonous tree"
It has become an established practice for CPS in the states to seek removal orders from the courts, or what ever other authority state and local law grants such power, at the start of investigation to remove the child from the potential hazard as the investigation begins. The standards are much lower than an adult case due to the very nature of the subject, a child. The absolute innocence of the child takes precedence over the assumed innocence of the adult who stands accused. After the investigation if nothing was happening or there is a good explanation the child is returned.
Can this be abused, yes, but so can all such policing activities. The instances of this working and working well far outweigh the abuses, otherwise we would do away with all law enforcement. I have seen it work, and I have seen it fail, and the failure would make all this silly arguing seem pathetic.
The question of Constitutionality of this practice in Child protection that keeps getting batted around here has been answered for years in courts overseen by judges both liberal and conservative. In the practice of child protection the child's welfare is paramount above all else, and inaction or delayed action can result in grievous harm of a known innocent person.
Seems many around here like talking about how things should work without paying much attention to how the really work and why things have have evolved as they are via legal precedent and professional practice.
This case perhaps will be argued for years by scholars, but in the end, Texas CPS did as all CPS services do, took action for the children first. There are many factors here that are still in the air, some the appellate court may not have considered or decided against. I do know the opinions of that decision are very mixed, even among some very conservative folks from my reading. We may have questions about the nature of how CPS came to the Ranch, about the information used, and that will have to be addressed, but among the sober and realistic, the subject of the Constitutionality on general CPS practices have been settled for more than a few years. Children have rights too. That is not a political position, but a human one, and among all people I would think those operating on the ideal of conservatism would value that. After all, why conserve anything if no one is left to enjoy it in the future.
This will make SOME people on FR very unhappy, especially if it's a successful prosecution. Shurtleff seems to think it might be.
I think your tinfoil hat is a little too tight, you might want to adjust it a bit.
Excellent. give 'em a fair trial and throw the guilty scum in jail.
Oh....while we are at it...celebrating the rule of law and due process, can we stop the guilt by association, guilt by innuendo, collective guilt and group punishment that has become the fashion here on FR?
Stop the child abuse AND stop the legal abuse.
There is simply no way to interact normally with a friggin commune of polygamous child swappers and molesters.
The system is setup for families and these folks are just to weird to fit in the system.
The only thing TX should be condemned for is not having hung all the adult men and half the adult women by now.
In the 48 HOURS special “POLYGAMY - A WORLD APART,” Tuesday, May 27 (10:00-11:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network, CBS News correspondents delve into this secretive world with insider accounts, harrowing escape stories, interviews with law enforcement officials and an explosive interview with high-ranking FLDS member Willie Jessop. The broadcast will explore the stunning court decision and examine the religious sect from the inside out
Correspondent Susan Spencer sheds light on the sect’s practices and self-styled prophet, Warren Jeffs, who, despite being in prison for his conviction as an accomplice to the rape of a minor, continues to lead the FLDS empire in a number of states. Additionally, these communities support themselves in part through various federal programs. In an interview with Spencer, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff describes the FLDS as “the American Taliban” for the way it treats women and compares it to “an organized crime group.” Spencer also sits down with private detective Sam Brower, who has been investigating the FLDS for years, and says that this is not about religion but “about child abuse, on a scale that’s never been seen before in this country.” And, Spencer talks to Elissa Wall, 21, who was 14 when she was forced into marriage and who was eventually responsible for Jeffs’ imprisonment.
What is next for the members of this Texas compound? Correspondent Peter Van Sant goes in search of answers as he interviews neighbors of the compound and Willie Jessop, who discusses life in the church in a confrontational interview. “My faith does not break the law,” Jessop proclaims. He goes on to call the state’s demand for birth certificates and DNA samples un-American. “I am innocent until proven guilty. They haven’t got one woman that says ‘please save me’. They haven’t found one child that says, ‘please save me,” he contends.
The broadcast will also feature the exclusive story of two teenage girls, about to married, who fled from the FLDS community in Salt Lake City, Utah. 48 HOURS documented their dramatic escape in 1999 and has followed their bid for freedom ever since. Now, nine years later, correspondent Erin Moriarty catches up with Sarah, whose escape came at the expense of her family. As she prepares to reunite with Laura Chapman, the woman who helped them break free, Sarah recalls life in the FLDS: “One of the things we kept hearing over and over again was that they needed to break my spirit. I laughed too much. I was too happy.”
While the allegations of abuse against young girls have taken center-stage, what about the experiences of young boys? Correspondent Seth Doane reports on the emotional journey of four boys who studied under Jeffs. Now excised from the sect, they struggle to find their way in the outside world, separated from the security of their families and homes.
Correspondent Troy Roberts explores the modern face of polygamy. With one husband three wives - two of them twins - and 22 children living in a suburb of Salt Lake City, they have jobs, wear make-up and their kids go to public school. They do, however, face challenges fitting in.
As polygamy has come under scrutiny, 48 HOURS “POLYGAMY - A WORLD APART” is produced by Douglas Longhini, Ira Sutow, Joe Halderman, Paul Ryan, Jay Young, Chris Young, Neil Katz, Deborah Grau, Jamie Stolz, Sarah Rodriguez Patti Aronofsky, Peter Henderson and Josh Gelman. Peter Schweitzer and Judy Tygard are the senor producers and Anthony Batson is the senior broadcast producer. Al Briganti is the executive editor. Susan Zirinsky is the executive producer.
These practices need to be forever ended. Cousin marriage, underage marriage, polygamy, forcing young boys to leave their homes, ad nauseum.
And while the authorities are at it they should go after the Muslims in this country who are doing the same or worse.
I’m recording it even as I type. One thing...the 48 Hours and shows like it can’t be “pulled” like they do threads here. People WILL see it, no one here can stop them.
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