Posted on 05/18/2008 10:05:55 PM PDT by UCANSEE2
"Three weeks into covering the polygamous ranch raid story, I keep hearing from colleagues throughout NBC News who want to know more about how members of the sect live."
--snip--
"Here are some of the things members of the sect told me about life on the YFZ Ranch – which stands for Yearn For Zion – in Eldorado, Texas:"
--snip--
"Much of the above sharply contrasts with the picture of alleged physical and sexual abuse painted by state investigators. The courts will ultimately decide which version of the truth is closer to reality. I can’t say whether what ranch residents tell me is true or not, but I thought you’d be interested in what they said." Source: http://fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/23/935617.aspx
(Excerpt) Read more at fieldnotes.msnbc.msn.com ...
“State is battin 0-4.”
As I said before, Let me line up 400 young females, and you ‘guess’ their ages.
I would bet you don’t get 50% right, and the ones you do, will likely be due to coincidence.
;)
It’s so easy to fake documents these days.
Was it a state issued BC or a decorative hospital certificate or even an FLDS issued certificate?
It doesn’t surprise me that they would want to authenticate the documents before accepting them as proof.
You mean this?
“The FLDS men and boys have all been detained at the ranch while two others have been formally arrested and taken into law enforcement custody.”
“it is the teaching of the FLDS religion to all the children.”
It is the teaching of the perversion of the FLDS and LDS and Mormon religion by a man who declared himself PROPHET, and declared the END OF THE WORLD.
It is the Warren Jeffs CULT. And he authorized, ordered, ordained, and performed the ceremonies. He also kidnapped children from other FLDS sects, and took them to TEXAS with “him. There are around 100 children at the YFZ Ranch (which isn’t a church at all) whose REAL parents are not with them.
One such couple is petitioning TEXAS to have their ‘kidnapped’ child returned to them.
” But, to my knowledge, there has never been an instance in which the teaching of a religion, no matter how weird, has been deemed sufficient reason to take children away. “
Go back to 1952 and the SHORT CREEK RAID.
How long should the state of TEXAS allow polygamy (which is illegal) and child-brides (which is illegal) to continue, even if it is being done under the cover of a religion?
If it is found out, in this investigation, that those who do not worship JEFFS as PROPHET, are subject to BLOOD ATONEMENT, (I.E. murdered), is that OK because it was done under the shield of ‘religion’?
“now we have conservatives that want to hand over their rights “for the children”.”
Maybe the ‘conservatives’ are more concerned that some of the men, and all the women/children, did not have the same ‘constitutional’, and ‘state’ rights that the rest of us have.
What would you do If I came to you and said, “I am the one an only true PROPHET of GOD, and I have been told by GOD personally that the end of the world is coming, this year. God also told me I could take your wife and kids with me.
So I’m taking your wife and kids with me, and moving to TEXAS. If you don’t cooperate, I will condemn you to hell, and then I will slit your throat” ???
“We’re leaving our children far less freedom than was left us and that’s not supposed to be how it works. “
The freedom that will be ‘taken’ from TEXANS is that they do not have the right to have sex with minors under the cover of religion.
GEE. I bet the TEXANS are gonna be real upset about that change.
(Isn’t that already the LAW? You can’t have sex with minors, no matter what the excuse?)
No matter what language (and how many capital letters) you used to describe the religion — and I agree that Warren Jeffs has abused power in the worst ways, that’s why he’s in jail in Utah — Texas is still punishing individuals for their beliefs, not their actions.
If you catch a particular perpetrator with an underage girl, prosecute him. That’s why Jeffs is in jail, and he didn’t even have sex with the girl. He was prosecuted as an accessory to statutory rape for arranging the marriage of a 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy.
Of course, if someone commits murder, prosecute him. Religion is not an excuse.
But not all FLDS are polygamists. (And the “polygamy” they practice is not illegal if consenting adults are involved because they don’t get marriage licenses for the plural wives.) Not all FLDS girls marry when they are underage. So Texas has said that, since FLDS beliefs create the possibility that some of these little girls will enter into underage marriage, or that some of these little boys might someday take an underage bride, that is enough to justify taking away all the children. That is wrong. That is punishing a whole group of people because their beliefs might someday lead to illegal acts, instead of punishing individuals for acts they have actually committed.
“I think it’s Mormon haters, who view these people as Mormons, and therefore not worthy of human consideration.”
i think it’s those of the Mormon faith who are concerned and believe that the Warren Jeff’s CULT has something to do with the Mormon Religion. It doesn’t. They are being defensive for no reason, or for their own mistaken perceptions.
Mormons are people. All of them I know are highly respected, clean, live well, are very healthy.
I haven’t seen any ‘Mormon’ haters on FR. I have Mormons get accused of being YFZ Ranch defenders, which they aren’t.
I have seen non-Mormons get accused of being Mormon-haters because they believe JEFFS, and his LOYAL INNER CIRCLE are criminals who must be brought to justice.
All this ‘hate’, and yet what we all really want is some understanding.
I’ve frequently seen the FLDS referred to as “Mormons” in the media. I’ve seen people routinely use the FLDS threads as opportunities to bash the Mormon founders. And, I don’t think it was an accident that the Texans took all these quasi-Mormon kids away in the Baptists’ buses. I think it was an in-your-face gesture.
After all, it wasn’t that long ago that Jerry Falwell was publicly preaching that all Mormons would go to Hell. By the time he died, I think he had mellowed to, “Mormons are nice people. To bad they’re going to Hell.” But, you get my drift.
“Texas is still punishing individuals for their beliefs, not their actions.”
Now, other than the need to place the children into protective custody until the DNA testing is complete, and ensure the children are ‘safe’, who is being punished?
The mothers are allowed to come and go. So are the men.
If an infectious disease requiring quarantine broke out at a school, would you be suing the state because they ‘took your child from you’?
If your religion said, “I am GOD, and so is my child, and he never gets sick”, should the state just let your child out of quarantine?
So, just what children would you allow to stay at the YFZ Ranch? (remember, if any children you leave at the ranch should be victims of any of the alleged crimes, you will have your *ss sued off, lose your job, and may end up in prison)
I think you know enough about this case to not confuse the two men "arrested" the day of the raid. They were charged with interfering and comments have been made that those charges would probably be dropped.
This is the opinion of a defense lawyer, not involved in the case, but I would give it more weight since these are some of the issues that will be raised if and when these cases ever come before a trail judge.
As I've said before, we are not the enemy here, as far too many on these threads seem to think. The over-zealous actions, improper court hearings, and violations of the victims rights will be what lets the perps walk, not us.
“So Texas has said that, since FLDS beliefs create the possibility that some of these little girls will enter into underage marriage, or that some of these little boys might someday take an underage bride, that is enough to justify taking away all the children.”
No, Texas said they have evidence they are currently violating the law, and condoning it as a group.
So you gather them up and scatter them to the four winds, claiming it's for their own good. This is preserving their rights?
You and I both know the latter is not feasible, you'd never get past the dog. ;)
I’m not really knowledgeable about the Bible, but I’ve always been under the impression that most people in Biblical times wore their hair long and dressed in robelike clothing. Is my impression wrong?
Work is interfering with my FReeping!
In order to make your point, you have to resort to language lumping the whole group together, without finding individual culpability for any particular criminal act, and then talk about “condoning” violations of the law.
Since when is “condoning” lawbreaking punishable? And what law? Plural “marriages” which can be statutory rape if the girl is underage and the husband is sufficiently older? If so, again, the only children even arguably at risk of that are girls at or near puberty. Polygamy? If they don’t legally marry the plural “wives,” and the wives are not underage, it is not against the law. It is just a big group shack-up.
I’m getting to the point where I think I’ve explained things enough on this thread. I don’t want to get frustrated again and risk sounding rude.
“I’ve frequently seen the FLDS referred to as “Mormons” in the media.”
That sucks. Warren Jeffs is a megalomaniac and a sexually disturbed person who took the Mormon and LDS religion and twisted it for his own ‘gain’. Everyone knows the ‘FLDS’ was a splinter group that split from the Mormons about 150 years ago.
Well, if you are going to condemn all non-Mormon Freepers for the acts of a few, then you are doing the same thing you accuse TEXAS of doing to the YFZ ranch.
Most ‘bashing’ wasn’t bashing at all. It was showing that the FLDS was ‘derived’ from the Mormons and their doctrines.
The Mormons quit the polygamy and child bride practices long ago. I think the Mormons just got offended by the fact that someone made the comparison. when ‘religion’ comes into play, everyone gets ‘defensive’. Especially if it’s ‘their’ particular religion that gets mentioned.
Maybe it was because the Baptists were the biggest group of ‘volunteers’ that TEXAS recruited to assist in this case.
Maybe it was because they had the buses readily available.
Or, would you rather the children were taken away in PRISON BUSES?
The reports I read had statements from the YFZ Ranch people that the Baptists were very courteous, kind, and thoughtful, in all that they did during the ‘raid’.
Sometimes it is our own ‘prejudices’ that make us see others as ‘prejudiced’.
(BTW, I am not a Mormon, nor a Baptist, though I have friends that are. Red, Yellow, Black, and White. too)
“After all, it wasn’t that long ago that Jerry Falwell was publicly preaching that all Mormons would go to Hell.”
Yeah, however, it is more likely that Jerry Falwell is in hell.
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