Posted on 05/09/2008 3:03:45 PM PDT by Armed Civilian
Hobbled by reason and logic? That's the most disturbing criticism of an individual that I've ever read on this board.
You can overthink anything. Sometimes things need to be accepted at face value.
Whew - no — that’s not the part I’m concerned about.
You now accuse me (passive-aggressively) of being a member of a cult. You proclaim yourself as being the truth-teller. I've got news for you, David Koresh, and other cult leaders like himself were ones who claimed that they had the truth and others didn't. Did you learn these tactics in the cult you belong to??
I frankly don't have the time to spend the whole day picking apart the un-truths and scriptural distortions in that hit piece you linked to; it's just too full of them. The really sad part is that it is all couched in language that sounds spiritual, and has cherry-picked scripture to "back it up".
So here's the bottom line: you obviously don't like Todd Bentley, and the manner in which God is pouring out His Spirit in this revival is a manner that is way outside the little tiny box you have put God in, so of course, you are going to attack it. Fine. Go ahead. Just don't try and convince everyone that you are somehow more spiritual than they are because you see the "truth" and they don't.
Jesus was accused of the very same kinds of things you accuse Todd Bentley of. The Word says, "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub. Now if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your followers drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you."
As I said, I don't have the time to pick through your hit piece line by line. In fact, I've spent more than enough time with this now. If you don't believe that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Florida is genuine, that Todd serves the One, Living and True God, then, hey, don't go there!
Feel free to not respond. I'm done with you on this subject.
That is is wife. We were overwhelmed at church last night watching.
Good!
I have seen a bit on internet/tv, but I haven’t been. I have some good friends getting back today from a couple days down there, and I know of several others who have made trips.
I know there will be excesses, but the reports I am hearing are of a hunger for God. Grab the good, intercede for the ‘bad’ - christians should be good at that...
I have been trying to imagine what the scene must have been like when Jesus stopped a whole crowd because He had been ‘touched’. Today’s ‘spectacle’ must rival that...
No, it isn’t. I do not dare judge whether this is a move of God or not. He will make it clear one way or the other to those who can discern the enemy’s ways. Mr. Bentley is not my cup of tea but he certainly has a great testimony of deliverance from almost every kind of sin you can name.
He’s come to our area before. I went to the series of meetings where he, Bill Johnson and Todd Bentley were ministering.
Amen, Armed Civilian. We have no idea what God is doing and we need to be careful of judging what’s going on in this arena.
Sometimes these things, plus a spirit of intelligence, can hinder your faith walk. People try to reason logically about faith instead of just receiving it.
I saw Clark a few years back when he was teaching with Todd Bentley and Bill Johnson at Mt. Zion Ministries in Utica, NY.
Sorry, but the gold dust we received in Toronto was real. It just appeared on the faces of some of the people there. Many also received gold fillings in their teeth. One of the women in our church did and we saw it. Be careful not to ascribe the things of God to the devil. I know there are fakes, but this time it was real.
“But are you aware that many Christian Theologians more learned than you or I, have long described major difficulties surrounding this particular passage of scripture.” John 5:1-8
Here is what Malcolm Wilson has to say about this scripture you are referring to.
1. The King James Bible published in 1611, is based on the manuscript known as Textus Receptus and it agrees in detail with the Peshitta, Italic, the Old Latin Vulgate and the Waldensian versions, produced in the 2nd Century. In these translations the angel is described as ’an angel’ never an ‘angel of the Lord ‘. In many other similarily based translations, the entire episode is completely omitted.
2. The use of the description, “angel of the Lord ”is confined to those bible translations which are based on the Minority Text or Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. These were not used in the King James version because they were (and still are) considered to be unreliable and full of hundreds of omissions and errors.
The Roman Catholic bible is based on these Minority Texts. The Catholics include the Apocrypha in their Bible and there the angel that stirred the waters is named as ‘Raphael’. Many Catholics pray to Raphael for healing. (The Christian church to which you and I belong, does not accept the canonicity of the Apocrypha or that Raphael is an angel of the Lord. )
3. The Bethesda pool is generally believed to be the one discovered in 1888 in N.E.Jerusalem, during excavations near St Annes Church. Whilst uncovering a wall a faded fresco was discovered depicting an angel ‘troubling’ the water.The pool at Bethesda was known by the early church as Bethzatha or Bethsaida. Bethesda means, as you know, ‘ house of mercy or outpouring ’, but did you know that Bethzatha or Bethsaida means ‘house of snares’ ? It seems that the early church may not have accepted that the angel concerned was of God either.
The question you need to ask yourself is, “What were all these sick people doing at the pool ?” It would seem that they were all lying there, hoping to get LUCKY ! i.e. the fittest or the fastest who could get to the pool first, would be the one healed. Unfortunately it was too bad for the rest ! One day Jesus turned up and in His mercy, healed the one who probably had been unsucessful the longest. The exact opposite of the ‘pool method ‘!
4. The probable scenario is that local superstition held that an angel turned up occasionally and troubled the waters. First in got healed. The trouble with this is that it seems to be something of a lottery ! There are no other examples of God healing like this in the Bible. Where is there any other example of angels being involved in healing ? Water was used in miraculous healings, but always in a specific way, like Naaman who was told to wash in the Jordan seven times. Even in the case of the bronze serpent everyone who looked up to it was healed. There is something very suspect about the claimed healings at Bethesda. Would God really send His Holy angels there to only heal the person who could shove, push and elbow others out of the way and be the first in ? On the contrary, the Bible shows that God heals people individually and specifically, not in some ‘free for all’ scramble of the fittest of the sick !
Imagine the scene, a multitude of sick and incurable people gathered around the pool. Suddenly the waters begin to move and pandemonium breaks out.Only one person will be healed, so the race is on! The first in is probably the least sick and least needy of healing. The sickest and most needy of healing can’t get in first. The fittest is healed. All the others are bitterly disappointed and begin to struggle out and get back to their places around the pool to wait for another opportunity. And we’re meant to believe that this is God’s divine healing grace in action ?”
So you see, that for me, any linking of what seems to be the angelically stirred ‘magical’ healing properties of the water at the pool at Bethesda to God’s divine healing power is at best tenous and at worst, unbiblical. John 5:1-9 simply does not demonstrate that God has ‘healing angels’ or angels which cause, stir or bring ‘healing anointings’ . Your teaching is not supported by the scriptures which are based on the best and most ancient manuscripts available. It has to be remembered that the devil has his angels too ! (Matt. 2) If, as many suspect, that it was not one of God’s angels ‘ troubling ‘ the waters, then you will surely accept that the whole notion of angelic involvement in healing is incorrect, extremely misguided and potentially dangerous.
People are in error when they link the events at the pool of Bethsaida with the signs and wonders in Acts that were done through the hands of the Apostles in Solomon’s Porch.
Solomon’s Porch was on the eastern part of the Temple until 70 AD, when the Temple was destroyed. The site of the pool at Bethsaida in Jerusalem, is north of the Temple Mount. The five porticos or porches mentioned in John 5:1-9, were part of a completely different building.!”
I used to use this scripture too, to refer to angels and healing but have stopped using it. There’s plenty of other scriptures that support healing.
Honestly, I used to never do my own Bible study but only rely on what others taught me until I had a Bible teacher challenge my class I was in to not take just what she taught but find out for ourselves if what she taught was based on truth.
I’m certainly not criticizing gemstones or gold manifestations- But i did hear of one instance where a guy was faking it. I don’t even know who it was, but I’m guessing it’s the same event referenced.
I have seen manna appear in meetings- ate some too! The presence of God was so strong in the room that all we could do was weep and worship.
A friend named Harold Beyer, deceased last year, would get this manifestation pretty regularly. His wife Kay is still ministering. They’ve been getting manna in their meetings since the 60s! It would usually appear on their open Bible as they spoke about God. He would sweep into the room and everyone knew He was there, and a little pile of manna would appear. It tasted like saltine crackers, but sweeter.
And before anybody askes, yes the Bible was sitting there all by itself in plain view. This was in a home meeting, no stage or platform. We were right there. Quite a mind-blower.
I just read your reply, I don’t have time to answer today. We are getting ready for church, and then we are heading up to Lakeland again.
Todd is human and like the rest of us, probably isn't completely accurate on everything he is preaching. I have yet to find a Christian denomination that is. They all have problems of one kind or another. Some don't believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit, some don't believe in divine healing, some don't believe that people can be demon possessed, some don't believe in speaking in tongues ect. ect.
I asked myself several questions. What Jesus does he preach? What is his fruit? What are the fruits of his detractors? Wonder what the church said about Martin Luther? They would have killed him, if they could have. Todd isn't perfect, for that matter neither is any of us. And if any one of us thinks for one minute we have all the truth and all of what God can and can't do, and we think we understand the whole bible, then that person has some serious pride problems.
Matthew 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
One thing that bothers me about Andrew Stroms site is, I don't see any statement of belief, nor how to get saved. He just has a bunch of diatribes on his site.
That's the exact same reaction the religious leaders had when Jesus had His ministry.
I have been touched by God in many different ways. Every time I've been touched by God it was a surprise, in the way it happened and everything about it. It has never been what I expected. But the out come was always the same, wonderful, glorious, awesome, would leave me speechless and in awe of His great love, mercy, grace and power.
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