Posted on 05/09/2008 7:06:21 AM PDT by MizSterious
Write it the way you want in your posts, I’ll write it the way I want in mine.
One aspect of this weird culture, not yet remarked upon so far as I know by sociological deep thinkers, is the significant number of young men left mateless, surely a recipe for chaos.
The sex ratio imbalance in China, due to its forced abortion policy, exacerbated by a cultural preference for sons over daughters, is causing this problem there.
That is one reason they tend to run off the young boys when they reach puberty. The old codgers don’t want the competition from the young fellas. There have been some articles posted on the plight of the Lost Boys (as they are called) on some of the daily threads (check the first post for which ones might have them) or Google it on the net. Very sad.
Yeah, the welfare fraud and child abuse aren’t a big enough deal for us to be concerned with.
Good grief.
Could you give me a link to any document that states that the Texas authorities raided this ranch because they wished to arrest people for polygamy? I’ll wait.
How is it a waste of government money for government to protect kids from predators. Defending the weak is the #1 job of government.
Simmer down, please.
Thank you for keeping a close eye on these threads
It keeps them a bit more civil
Welcome!
I believe it was the Mayor of San Angelo who said 'polygamous cults are quasi religious harems for a few old men.'
Gee, I hope I got my point across with the need for UNNECESSARY CAPITLIZATION!!!
Nicely done.
“I dont care if the person is sleeping with 4 wives, 2 wives and 2 husbands, a sheep, an inflatable doll or by himself - it is not my business!!”
OK. But what if he’s beating his wives, and having sex with your neighbor’s children?
“They had a RANCH... they were not bothering ANYONE!!!”
The ‘bank’ that owns the YFZ Ranch (the JEFFS FLDS isn’t even a real ‘church’, legally) the UNITED EFFORT PLAN, has been convicted and fined for violating child labor laws.
Members of the JEFFS FLDS sect are currently under prosecution for a variety of charges, including indecency with a minor.
They purchased the RANCH on false pretenses, claiming it was going to be a hunting lodge.
The women and children of the YFZ Ranch, and most of the men, are not even allowed their constitutional rights.
They removed their children from public schools, but don’t provide any comparatively equal home schooling.
The home schooling consists of ‘outsiders are all heathens, lie to the authorities, protect Warren JEFFS, and your ‘father’ at all costs, even if you don’t know his name.
I think we all got a big laugh out of that line.
Thanks!
“Now, congress is looking into MEGACHURCHES.”
Not everything the Congress does is right.
I don’t think it is safe to give any, and all, activities conducted under the veil of religion , a free pass though.
If so, then we should dismiss all cases against Catholic Priests who had sex with children.
And a lot of your tax money went into that.
And a lot of your tax money went into that.
The situation with the FLDS community in Utah-Arizona is very, very different than Texas. I think Shurtleff is on the right track, and has a good deal of political support from outside the polygamist groups. The last time Utah tried a “raid” on the FLDS, in 1953, it ended very badly, and laid the foundation for the increasingly insular and paranoid direction the group took. The establishment of the YFZ ranch, with its extreme insularity and complete control of every aspect of residents’ lives, was the culmination of the backlash from that raid.
The group was nowhere near as abusive then, as it has become since. There were some underage marriages, but it was not the norm, and the male-female ratio was close to 50-50, meaning that there were very few of the megafamilies with a dozen or more wives, and no young boys/men were being jettisoned from the community. A lot of the women (and men) went to college, still living at home in the case of women, in most cases, but attending regular colleges, getting degrees and certification in things like nursing and teaching. The women were seeing plenty of the outside world, and acquiring the education and skills needed to make their way in mainstream society if they chose. In other words, they were meaningfully free to leave, yet most chose to stay. And those who chose to leave were still able to stay in touch with their families, as the mandatory shunning of apostates and outsiders hadn’t been instituted yet. There was also regular listening to radio, some TV, lots of non-FLDS books in average households, etc. What Utahns understand is that the aggressive crackdown of 1953 is what CAUSED this evil cult to emerge.
As for the notion of staging a raid in Utah today, similar to the Texas raid, there’s simply no way to do that. The YFZ ranch was an enclosed compound, and everyone inside was a fully practicing member of the most extreme form of the FLDS religion. The Utah-Arizona community is physically open, with a lot of ex-members living in the midst of members, and with each individual father having his own home, often built largely with his own hands. No dormitory style multi-family housing. The state border location of the community is also problematic, and the group has long used that as a way to evade law enforcement. People are constantly popping back and forth across the state line, often making it unclear where a particular alleged crime might have occurred, and making it extremely difficult to determine who is a resident of which state, if the people in question are trying to obfuscate this issue.
In recent years, Utah and Arizona have been pursuing a strategy of gradual opening up of the community, forging more contact between insiders and outsiders, making it easier for women and children who want help to communicate that, and deliberately blurring the sense of separation between the FLDS and the other more moderate polygamist groups, many of which dress normally, send their children to normal public schools, etc. They’ve made huge progress, and the clearest evidence is that Warren Jeffs gave up on Utah and Arizona and decided to set up his “Zion” compound in Texas.
We shouldn’t assume we know more about how to handle this complex problem than Mark Shurtleff or other Utah and Arizona authorities who have been dealing with it for a long time. I think what Texas did is wonderful, but it was tailored to the very unique situation at the YFZ ranch, and can’t just be replicated in other FLDS communities.
Texas: FLDS mothers in a 'conspiracy of silence' cannot challenge childrens' removal |
By Brooke Adams The Salt Lake Tribune Salt Lake Tribune |
Article Last Updated:05/09/2008 12:47:33 PM MDT |
Posted: 12:48 PM- Until women from a polygamous sect "unequivocally" identify their offspring, they have no standing to contest a judge's decision to remove the children from a West Texas ranch, state officials argue. The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services contends in a new court filing that FLDS mothers have engaged in a "conspiracy of silence" that forced the en masse hearings they now want to redo. The document was filed in response to a petition filed with the Third Court of Appeals in Austin on behalf of 50 women from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It includes a new count for the number of FLDS children in custody - 468 - which is four children more than its last announced tally. In the mothers' petition, filed by Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, the women asked the court to reunite them with their children as they work to comply with any service plan devised by the state. But Texas DFPS argues their pleadings do not name or identify children as belonging to specific mothers, something the women have "repeatedly declined to do" and which calls into question their right to dispute the state action. "Neither the courts nor the department should be forced to play guessing games when the safety and well-being of these children are at stake," the document states. The state also argues that 51st District Judge Barbara Walther did not abuse her discretion simply because she relied on certain facts to determine that children should remain in state custody. The state argues that during a hearing held April 17-18 no attorneys objected to the format used, which it narrowly interprets to mean use of an overflow auditorium. Numerous attorneys did object to the "en masse" hearings, which they said denied their clients the right to individually make the case their children were not at risk. The state filing says, "A review of the record indicates no attorney argued or urged a motion to sever during the adversary hearing" and argues it was unclear whether the attorneys' objections were about the split hearing rooms or the consolidated hearing. Trying to hold individual hearings that met a statutory 14-day deadline would have been "an extraordinary waste of judicial resources" and a "logistical nightmare," the state argues. It also says attorneys for parents and children were given ample opportunity to question witnesses and present evidence before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther concluded the children were at risk. The document recounts the history of the case, which began April 3 when investigators from Texas Child Protective Services entered the ranch in response to multiple calls from a 16-year-old named Sarah who claimed to have been abused. Those calls are now being investigated in connection with a Colorado woman who has a history of making false abuse reports. A CPS investigator said her team found two or three girls at the ranch who could have been "Sarah" but that the children would "switch their names, use a different last name than they had previously reported and falsely report that they had no middle names." Ranch residents continued to provide "misinformation" throughout the investigation, the filing states. Despite that, the state uncovered facts that led to its conclusion that children at the ranch were being endangered by their parents' beliefs and practices. Girls told them there was no age too young to be married. Girls as young as 16 were already mothers and lived in households with other wives. The state identified about 20 "girls" who had conceived or given birth younger than 16 or 17 - though some of the mother's ages are now disputed and the births occurred as long ago as 1993. As for boys, the danger to them is a "belief system requires them to follow the prophet," the filing states. Removal of all the children was justified because the ranch was considered a single household, the filings said. And removing the men from the ranch so that children could stay there with their mothers was "untenable and impractical." The "entire male and female population at the ranch had been enculturated into the belief that underage marriage was sacrosanct," the state argues. |
Source: The Salt Lake Tribune. |
Remember, some of these children were in Texas without their parents, and in some cases this was because their father had been kicked out of the cult and lost contact with the children, not necessarily even knowing what state they were in. If a child has even one Utah resident parent, it’s appropriate for the Utah government to get involved the custody issue. If a child has a Utah resident parent who never consented to the removal of the child to Texas, then absolutely the child should be returned to Utah, as any minor kidnapping victim would be. Likewise, the Canadian government is getting involved in the case of the Canadian minor who was taken from the Texas compound, whose parents both live in Canada and claim the girl was just visiting relatives in Texas.
I think they are trying to work it like they do the illegal immigration situation. It doesn’t really work for that, and I doubt that it will work in UT and AZ—not if they truly want to do something about cults like this one. Polygamy seems to lend itself nicely to abuses like what occurred in Texas (which actually began in AZ and UT). When I do a search on “polygamy” all sorts of troublesome situations turn up, from Africa to the Middle East to Indonesia. Do some live lawfully and peaceably? No doubt—but many do not, and the crimes and abuses described in some of these stories are often directly related to the polygamy.
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