Raid on Sect in Texas Rattles Other Polygamists

The New York Times ^ | 5/8/08 | KIRK JOHNSON and JOHN DOUGHERTY

[Politicalmom]

COLORADO CITY, Ariz. — As the supper dishes were being cleared away and the rice pudding brought out for dessert, Marvin Wyler’s two wives, along with some of their children and a group of friends, began poring over the list.

The 44-page document, from a court in Texas, gives a glimpse of who is married to whom in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or F.L.D.S. — and in the hothouse world of religious polygamy, a list like that is a sort of Rosetta Stone to the usually hidden relationships of power, politics and piety.

“We are adding up the number of men who may be going to prison,” .....

[Politicalmom]

That’s the Declaration, not the Constitution.

What do I win?

[Froufrou]

Actually, I just heard Hannity say that corporations don’t pay taxes. Yesterday, I think was. Definitely heard him say it this week on radio.

BTAIM, Jonesie is correct that one cannot ‘isolate’ for one’s entertainment that portion of the DOI or the Constitution and expect to thus make any serious argument.

People who’ve done that are probably the reason we’ve had to make so many extra laws in the first place!

[commonguymd]

Lmao, zing. To some it is a living breathing document worthy of being installed in some museum of a failed experiment, so why should people have to read it.

[commonguymd]

Corporations don’t pay taxes in all reality. Taxes are cost of doing business and are passed on to the consumer, at least in my world I certainly pass it on. Government raises my corporate taxes, I raise my margin accordingly. Property taxes go higher, price go higher, business license taxes get increases, I raise prices, etc. etc. Of course, we can only raise prices according to supply and demand, but nevertheless if you are just paying more and more taxes as a corporation and not passing it on to the consumer where possible, perhaps you shouldn’t be in business.

Do you think corporations just sit back and say okay, more taxes means less profit? LMAO.

[Lord_Calvinus]

***God forbid. The “old perverts” should have been rounded up, not the innocent children. And if the “old perverts” were rounded up, the women would be free to get their heads out of the rear-ends and get a clue. As it is, all of their fears about the outside world have come true.***

What the Mormon apologists for their polygamist cousins don’t seem to understand is that if a mother gives a child in marriage, that, too is a crime. Considering that for every “old pervert” who took a child there was also a woman that gave that child there aren’t too many innocent women. I’m sure in the end some kids will ultimately return to their rightful mothers. I’m sure most won’t in the best interest of the child against their polygamist parents.

[Froufrou]

The voice of reason. What occurs to me to is this: why isn’t it the father’s place to ‘give’ his little girl?

Oh, that’s right...they aren’t real fathers, just ‘spiritual’ ones. But, so are the mothers, if one can tell who one’s “real” mother is...

[Colofornian]

“What goes in AZ and Ut will not wash in Texas.”

What happens in AZ & UT doesn't stay in AZ & UT. (It gets exported to Eldorado, Texas; Four Corners, Colorado; Pinesdale, Montana; Bountiful, Canada; and parts of Mexico, etc.)

[ejonesie22]

I am not a new conservative by far, but if it makes you feel better you got me I guess. Now run upstairs and tell mom you are awesome, put on your Sunday Suit and play business man or whatever.

BTW I just signed off on my 2007 Corporate accounting report, paid taxes again, so either you are wrong, again, or there are a lot of corporations that are sending money to nowhere...

[ejonesie22]

Trust me, Corporations pay taxes, I see it every year. We can mitigate it to some extent with losses etc. but in the end we have to pay the piper as much as individuals. I know the whole “but you pass the cost onto customers” bit comes into play but there are many industries where that does not help that much, due to adjusting prices to stay competitive as well. It all factors in the mix.

[JustaCowgirl]

Sigh, next we will hear about the tanks & the guns....Are you ready?

And the endless squealing about 'what about my constitutional rights?'

Nothing worse than a rattled polygamist, I always say.

[ejonesie22]

In setting a price structure, Corporate taxes figure into the final price passed on to the customer, and has to be factored in along with pricing to stay competitive. So it increases the burden and decrease the profit margins since it becomes a factor in the final calculations of what is charged to the customer. You yourself said you set pricing to supply and demand, so you have to deal with the same factors like every other company. To think that in the end some of the tax burden doesn't come from a company's bottom line even after as much of the cost is passed on as possible is naive and misleading. Reflect on this before deciding who should or should not be in business, and look into getting up to speed on the accounting concept of cost analysis.

We send a check to Uncle Sam just like every other Company. Do we try and pass the cost off to the customer, of course, but in the end it still comes out of our accounts and off the bottom line.

It sounds good to say “Corporations don't pay taxes”, it makes the little guy feel better, but it is a less than honest approach to the subject and does not reflect the sum total of the effect of taxes on Corporations in the US.

[commonguymd]

Corporate taxes are hidden consumer taxes plain and simple. Case in point, a 3 cent increase in the state tax at the gas pump immediately raises prices 3 cents. If you are looking at it in any other way other than cost of doing business then you have a bad accountant. In any industry or retail sector, every company is taxed the same and prices are reflected accordingly so there is a level playing field in determining end user pricing. On paper, it looks like it comes of the bottom line, but your bottom-bottom line would look the same if you weren’t taxed or are over taxed.

You are trying to argue semantics with another poster suggesting he lied. In all reality he did not. The consumer doesn’t see the tax because it isn’t like a sales tax, but they pay it nonetheless.

[Froufrou]

Jonesie, I’m on your side! And for the record, I work for a nonprofit and we just paid 1% of the adjusted 990 tax due for the PRIVILEGE of having Uncle Sam TELL us we WILL pay out 6.5M this year. They are taxing us for giving it away, as benefactors even while they tell us how much to give away.

So Hannity and the ‘don’t pay’ crowd can hang it up.

[commonguymd]

Never been involved in a non-profit and I can assume that it is far different than a for profit company. Most non-profits are rip offs in my opinion anyway, save the Salvation Army.

When corporate taxes go up, prices go up. Who is paying for the increase? Think it is coming out of my pocket?

[Froufrou]

"Think it is coming out of my pocket?"

Not your boss-pocket, your consumer-pocket. Get it? As long as you consume, you're the victim of higher taxes just the same as the rest of us. You don't get off the hook because you're self-employed. Sorry.

And, you should be above making hasty generalizations. Doctor.

[commonguymd]

You are absolutely correct, but now you are talking about tax related inflation affecting me as a consumer. That affects everyone, but again when taxes are raised on businesses and corporation in particular, those tax increases are passed along to the consumer. That is the point. I hate tax increases in property, licenses, sales, etc etc. I am not promoting taxes, just clarifying the “lie”. Taxing the big bad corporations as a feel good just means the consumer pays more period.

[commonguymd]

Not to belabor the point, but if you are doing interstate commerce, or manufacturing; to be on a level playing field you might look for the lowest tax opportunities. Hence, if Wisconsin doesn’t invite me with lower taxes and tax incentives, and North Carolina is willing to give tax incentives to create jobs I will move my business to get ahead of the game and keep myself competitive. Sitting back and getting taxed beyond pass along is silly obviously, and also an opportunity to take advantage where possible. If you are intrastate then the level playing field is already set.

What I would like consumers to be aware of is that when corporate taxes rise to seemingly sock it to the corporations, the costs associated will eventually be reflected at the point of sale. It is a hard sell to raise income taxes, property taxes, etc... so many in government know increasing corporate taxes is a hidden consumer tax nonetheless.

[ejonesie22]

I'll make it simple since 21st Century international business isn't for some people.

I produce and item, it costs 100.00 retail, but my new competition from overseas has come to market at 90.00. I need to stay competitive, so I go to 90.00 as well. Does that come from my bottom line profit or do I call the Fed and say “hey, my competition has reduced their price, can you reduce my tax liability by 5 or 10 percent.". I am sure they will wait until after the hang up on me to start laughing.

Or even better, after I go to 90.00 my tax rate goes up 3 percent, do I ignore that and hope we don't get busted or does that cost increase come from profit? Or even better do I raise my price back up and hope my customers don't mind...

Saying Corporations pay no taxes is a great meme for the “Fair Taxers” and the black helicopter crowd, but in the end it is total BS. As far as if BSST lied, the taxes are paid by the Corporation, we send our checks to the Fed, so it is not a matter of semantics, but a matter of fact, anything else is just word games.

BTW I have a great accountant, and we tend to be honest business men around here, we don't cook books and the like, though we will ride the tax code hard and fast. In the real world things are just not that cut and dry for medium and larges businesses.

I long for my S Corp days...

[commonguymd]

Start manufacturing overseas then or find a state where you get tax break incentives if you are no longer competitive. That is the game isn’t it? Some companies will blame taxes for not being competitive, I understand, but that is usually not the case unless they are trapped. Some companies just get passed by in the marketplace - fact of life. I, like you always pay my taxes, from personnel, properties, sales tax, personal business property, vehicles, profit taxes, etc, etc. etc. I have never found the need to cook books and each corporation I have is an S corp, and each property is an individual LLC.

[Froufrou]

We don’t cook books, either. In our case, we’d be shut down. Besides, we have a yearly audit as required by law.

There really isn’t anything very complicated about any of this. Suffice it to say, middle and upper middle class taxpayers are paying the lion’s share for everyone else.

What scares me is the thought that hungry neo-Marxist Hillarys are waiting in the wings to take over. Scary because they haven’t a clue how to fund their pie-in-the-sky projects. Health care? Puh-leeze. Wait for the boomers to retire, then see how it’s funded.