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thanks for the insights into Hagel. I don't know him or much about him. I don't know whether or not his positions are defensible or not. But I do know that what is defensible is for any political leader of this country is a. to ask what are our goals in a military action and what blood and treasure are we expending to obtain it and b. is our strategy making reasonable progress or do we need to approach things in a different manner.

Our political leadership from Johnson down through most of the US congress - because of the American blind opposition to communism - failed to treat Vietnam as a serious strategic problem. Too many around here would do the same in Iraq. So far, I have yet to find anyone on FR who can tell me what success or failure in Iraq would look like. If Iraq were to be taken over by the Taliban or the Mahdi I would regard that as a failure. The implanting of a christian based liberal democracy (liberal in the traditional meaning of the word), on the other hand, is something beyond earthly powers, so I merely inquire where we plan to stop, and stir up a hornets nest of indignation at the question.