Posted on 04/25/2008 1:46:26 AM PDT by Pebcak
I have been truly sickened over the past week by some of what I have read on FR about this case. I can’t figure out if these people just hate the government, no matter what, or truly don’t have a problem with young girls being used in this manner.
I have seen several posters who are more worried about what the government might do than what is actually happening to those children.
That thinking is messed up!
I agree with you. They’d probably be the same people screaming if the government hadn’t done anything and it came out about the abuse later. Some people just want to believe the government is always wrong. Of course, there are also some people who think that you should be allowed to do anything you want to your children because they’re yours. Certainly, the government has been known to go overboard but I think any rational person really looking at this case would see that what has been done had to be done.
I’m sure some of the children will be reunited either with their mothers, or with their fathers who were expelled from the cult before their children were moved to Texas. First, the judge needs to establish who and where each child’s biological parents are. In the case of children who are found to have either dual citizenship or Canadian-only citizenship, the question of jurisdiction needs to be settled. For Canadian-only children, it’s unlikely that the Texas courts will have the final say in which, if either, of their biological parents any particular child will be reunited with. For children born in other US states, and who have one or both biological parents still residing in another state, other state courts are likely to end up with jurisdiction.
An important point you’re missing about Carolyn Jessop is that she left the cult very early in Warren Jeffs’ tenure as prophet. She was prompted to leave by the increasingly extreme and abusive treatment that members were being subjected to, and especially to Warren’s new decree that all girls were to be married at 14 (an age which one of her daughters was fast approaching). Circumstances in the Utah-Arizona FLDS community during the years Carolyn was having her babies were significantly different that the circumstances in any FLDS location now.
The residents of the YFZ ranch were selected by Warren Jeffs based on their obedience and loyalty to him, and based on gender. The ranch has only been populated for about 4 years, and most of the children are older than that. Note that the male to female ratio among the children is wildly skewed, something like 8 girls for every boy. This is the most glaring evidence that the mothers at the ranch were raising groups of children that did not match the list of children they gave birth to. Many boys too young to be thrown out on the street yet, were left behind in Utah-Arizona and British Columbia, while many girls were sent to the ranch without their mothers. The practice of reassigning wives and children to other men when a man is kicked out of the cult is so widespread, that it’s not even worth discussing the extent to which the men serving as “fathers” at the ranch were raising their own biological children.
It’s a huge mess, but the Texas court has no choice but to retain complete physical custody of every single child, until their biological parents are identified, located, and notified.
The LDS Church is trying to emphasize that it has no connection to this cult. I understand their position, since much of the public seems unclear on this issue. In addition, if they tried to get involved, especially given that they’re a pretty aggressively proselytizing church, they would be instantly subjected to accusations (mostly by members of competing churches) of trying to exploit the situation by getting access to the children in order to convert them to the LDS faith. Unfortunately, we’ve already had a first-hand report from a FReeper who went to a volunteer training session run by the Methodist children’s home that some of the children are being sent to, that the people running that program have clear plans to try to convert the children to the Methodist faith.
I've seen similar reports from at least two other former members, with at least one of those indicating it was common practice. And it's not irrelevant that Carolyn's former husband, Merril Jessop, is the bishop who has had day-to-day control over this compound since it was established. He was/is clearly very much favored by "prophet" Warren Jeffs, in order to be chosen for this position, so his values and practices must be representative of what the "prophet" supports, and what is being taught/ordered at the YFZ compound.
Flora Jessop tells the same story:
From birth, she said, children are indoctrinated in the principal of “perfect obedience,” not only to God, but to the “prophet,” and their elders. Infants are trained not to cry, she said, by slapping their faces or holding their heads under water. By the age of six months, she said, their only means of communicating their hurt, their fear, is suppressed, and as they grow the learn to keep all other emotions in check as well.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy290.html
I have a boat load of Amish friends. They used to come into a bar where I was bartending and play pool, or rather, learn how to play pool. They did get pretty good, though. Met a lot of them through working construction also. They are good people.
I surely did not do a good job of saying what I was trying to say. I did not wish to imply that the feds were doing right and the women were doing wrong.
The “child protectors” that are so prevalent these days, are nothing of the sort. Our government (and corporate) bureaucracies, would make the Soviets blush.
On this particular subject, I’ve already said several times that I’m not that interested in the broad discussion of FLDS that some want to have. But you were intimately involved in helping to set up the daily thread with the purpose of getting all the facts out.
But it’s not fair for me to put that burden on you. I just thought you had claimed it for your own.
When I am really interested in something, I like to take the different information from different sources, and try to figure out how they could all be pointing to the same truth.
I realise now though that my questions relate to the children and their mothers, and not how evil FLDS is, so maybe they weren’t in the area of interest for others.
Nice job misconstruing my previous statements. You got it almost half right, which at least means that you bothered reading what I said and thought about it enough to figure out how to say it wrong.
If I wasn’t interested in facts, I wouldn’t ask questions. If I really wasn’t interested in facts, I’d just go spouting off whatever I thought would make others nod their heads in agreement.
During the catholic priest scandal, some argued that since they were such a hierarchical, controlled organization, there was no way that all the priests didn’t know what the bad priests were doing.
It’s a clever argument of possibility, but has little meaning in fact. People either KNOW, or don’t know. their knowledge isn’t based on whether it is likely they would know.
It’s like sitting around in a windowless office, wondering if it is raining. You can discuss the weather when you walked in, the temperature changes, all the things that make it likely or unlikely that it is raining. But all your reasoning won’t make a different in what is actually true.
Reasoning and probailities are great for figuring out what MIGHT happen in the future, but when you are talking about something that already happened, the facts are whatever actually happened, not was was possible.
So I would never tell you that if “in a close organization like this even if all the children weren’t being abused those that lived there knew who was”. I would agree that there is a possibility they would all know. There is also a possibility that many of them were not privy to everything that was happening.
Remember that the police had an informant who by some accounts has been part of the group for 4 years. I would guess that informant would be as knowledgable as any average woman in the compound.
And whatever they were reporting, it wasn’t enough to make the police raid the place. So, if someone WAS turning a “blind eye”, it was the authorities who had access to the informant.
But the authorities have shown they have no hesitation in acting decisively when they even THINK there might be something wrong.
So, it is much more likely that some or most women had no idea what was happening. Less likely is that they knew the one person was an informant and hid everything from that person.
In any case, the fact that there was an informant, and that the police did nothing, suggests that it was quite possible to stay in that close organization and NOT know about all the abuse.
None of that matters to me. A group of people have had their children seized, and under law, the state has an obligation to present evidence against EACH INDIVIDUAL. They will have to show that the parents did something, or KNEW of something being done to their kids.
Meanwhile, while I have remained blissfully ignorant of this group, some freepers have been following it for years. It’s not like this is a shock to everybody — and since I doubt freepers all sat around and let it happen, maybe the truth is that it isn’t as easy to fix stuff like this as you suggest.
Yep . If what has been reporting going on, has, can you really blame them?
No I can't blame them at all. On these threads we've heard every possible justification, but Texas has kept it's eye on the ball. Our first duty is to protect those who cannot protect themselves, as a State and as it's citizens.
There will be PR stunts. There will be appeals. There will be protests like were held in Utah. There will be name calling, but in the end I hope we will stand up as one in Texas and say, “You won't hurt children here.”
We drew a line in the sand at the Alamo, and we're doing it again, with much thanks to the firm resolve of Sheriff Doran and Judge Walther.
Yep it's that time again. I was reviewing my list this week. I'm pretty stocked except for the snacks. I give those to the kids at the end of hurricane season party':)
Shall I chase them away by saying...”I have a feeling about this year?” Usually when I say that, at most we get an Emily. BTW, Emily the hurricane dog is fine and still on the job!
RE: the flds, I believe that more women going to the shelters is a good thing. I think perhaps for the first time in their lives they might be starting to feel safe.
Plus the Amish,( at least some sects) give their teens a chance to see what the English world is like before joining the church. Its called Rumspringa . Many see the English world, dress like us, drive etc. And many go back to the Amish way of life. From what I have seen buying antiques in Lancaster PA area the women have much more freedom thankfully. They don’t live in compounds with barred gates & manned gun towers. Nor do they have to marry who their father or a Prophet tells them too .
CONTINUING WITH YOUR LINE OF REASONING ...
Nor are Amish Women married off at age 14 or so -- the Amish are not pedophiles.
Nor are Amish Women part of a harem of breeding women -- Amish men are faithful to one wife.
Nor are Amish Women beaten and abused -- Amish men treat women with love and respect.
Nor are Amish Women solely responsible for child-rearing -- Amish men are wonderful fathers.
Nor do Amish Women have children merely to call home spirit babies -- Amish children are considered a blessing from God.
Etc.
The contrast between people who follow the teachings of Jesus, and those who follow the teachings of Joseph Smith is stark indeed.
You have a FReepmail. Pandora
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