Culture shock: Seized polygamous sect kids face tough adjustment (YFZ/fLDS Daily Thread)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 04/24/2008 07:32:33 AM MDT | N/A

[MizSterious]

Culture shock: Seized polygamous sect kids face tough adjustment

The Associated Press

Article Last Updated: 04/24/2008 07:32:33 AM MDT

Posted: 7:33 AM- SAN ANGELO, Texas - The hundreds of children from a polygamist compound taken into state custody are on their way to group homes, shelters and residences, but experts and lawyers fear their transition may be much harder than it is for other foster children.
    The 437 children taken from the compound in West Texas will be plunged into a culture radically different from the community where they and their families shunned the outside world as a hostile, contaminating influence on their godly way of life.
    Many of the children have seen little or no television. They have been essentially home-schooled all their lives. Most were raised on garden-grown vegetables and twice-daily prayers with family. They frolic in long dresses and buttoned-up shirts from another century.

[greyfoxx39]

There is an excellent thread with a thorough examination of the genetic defect, fumerase deficiency, being passed down in the FLDS cult:

HERE

Miz, there have been a lot of posts scattered around asking about this disease. You might want to consider making it a permanent link in your thread.

[MizSterious]

Agreed, plus some of metmom’s excellent links.

[Night Hides Not]

1850’s medical? No thanks.
Slavery? Not in favor of it.
Good manners? Yes, please

One out of three is a good start.

Good thing these kids are white. If they were of a minority persuasion, just think of the circus that would be going on.

...as if the circus doesn't have a few rings going under the Big Top already.

Just a question...what rights should the parents have when they've engaged in a criminal conspiracy of polygamy and statutory rape?

I don't see where the State is overstepping its authority. I'll be looking for evidence of welfare fraud.

[MHGinTN]

Yup, works like a ‘mirror of truth’. Can you imagine what Harry Potter would elicit? Wow, some of this ‘culture’ stuff will need very careful explanation to prevent the boomerang effect! Give a glimpse into just how degenerate our society has become, don’tchaknow.

[MizSterious]

Legal aid group challenges state's FLDS placement plan

Staff report

Thursday, April 24, 2008

The Third Court of Appeals has decided to hear arguments over whether the state of Texas can place children from the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints currently in its custody into foster care without giving each of their families the opportunity to defend themselves in court, according to a press release.

The decision comes after Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA), the leading provider of legal aid in Texas, filed a request with the court to order state District Judge Barbara Walther to hold hearings at which each family would be able to respond to allegations of abuse. TRLA is arguing that the children should not be sent to various locations throughout the state until the court decides whether these hearings should take place.

"These families have the right to have their voices heard in the legal process," said TRLA attorney Robert Doggett. "The idea that these children can be taken away without giving their families the opportunity to address allegations and fight to stay together is absurd."

The appeals court will conduct a hearing at 2 p.m. Tuesday in Austin. Although the state of Texas has said that all of the FLDS children would be placed into foster care by the end of the week, these developments make it unclear as to whether that will still occur. More than 100 of the children were moved from the San Angelo Fairgrounds to facilities across Texas on Tuesday.

GoSanAngelo

[Tammy8]

It seems unthinkable to us that these children have been denied all the joys our children had- but was there any substitute? Did they have other books and toys? I am just wondering if they had other amusements or were not allowed to be children at all. Do you know?

I was raised pretty stark- I also lived rurally and pretty isolated, we did not have electricity, so no television, and ate pretty much what we raised. I did have animals- all kinds of animals. I was expected to help my mother around the house and had many chores to do that involved taking care of the animals- but did have free time to be a kid. My mother encouraged reading but I did not have many books, and ended up reading adult books like Zane Gray and Louis Lamour because that is what was in the house to read mostly. My mother made a lot of our clothes. My parents were Christian but not fanatics and all in all I think I had a wonderful childhood- I really think so, especially now in looking back. I did attend school and felt odd at school that I did not have the same type of lifestyle everyone else had- the other children had TVs and toys, etc. I had a very different lifestyle, but I did have many good times, and was allowed to be a child.

I guess what I am asking is did these children just have different things that brought them joy or were they not allowed to be children? Having a different childhood is one thing- I hope they were allowed to be children though.

[Politicalmom]

Allow those who have already PROVEN who their children are to speak. It shouldn’t take long....

[Politicalmom]

Warren Jeffs outlawed all toys. He also made the Colorado group kill their dogs, and banned fishing and the color red.

[Alice in Wonderland]

Short Creek redux? Colorado City historian Ben Bistline on the FLDS, Warren Jeffs, and Yearning for Zion.

With shades of Roman Grant’s nefarious Juniper Creek Compound on HBO’s Big Love and echoes of Arizona Governor Howard Pyle’s disastrous 1953 raid on Short Creek, Arizona — the community that became polygamist haven Colorado City — chaotic hearings continue today in the seizure of more than 400 kids from the FLDS’ Yearning for Zion compound in Texas. Like everyone, I’ve been fascinated by the morbid Twilight Zone-like tours of YFZ by sometimes unibrowed FLDS moms. And I’ve been torn by the competing rights of mothers seeking to be reunited with their children and children who may need protection from the FLDS’ perverse religious dictums.

Plural marriages and child brides were subjects former New Times staffer John Dougherty continually addressed in a series of articles about the FLDS for our paper. (You can read Dougherty’s whole series on polygamy in Arizona, here.) Currently, Dougherty is reporting on the Texas situation for the New York Times, but in 2005 he was already warning the world about the massive white stone edifice being built on a 1,700-acre compound just outside Eldorado, Texas.

The compound was to be the new home for FLDS prophet Warren Jeffs’ polygamist sect. The cult was relocating to escape the scrutiny it had come under in Colorado City. Behind guarded gates, they hoped to practice their religion in secret. The raid on that compound by Texas Rangers and other law enforcement has ripped the scab off the FLDS sore. Now we’re all spellbound by the aftermath of the raid and the bizarre living arrangements of the cult itself.

For some perspective, I turned to Colorado City historian Benjamin Bistline, author of The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona. Bistline, who is in his 70s, grew up in that community, experienced the Short Creek raid, and still lives just outside of Colorado City proper. Oft-quoted by those researching or writing about the FLDS, Bistline has been closely following the Texas situation and spoke to me late last week.

What’s your general impression of what’s happened in Texas? Do you think it’s an overreaction by the Texas authorities?

Bistline: It’s not overreaction. The ’53 raid at Short Creek — there was no justification for it. I was 18 years old. I was part of that raid, when the state of Arizona raided it. That was a whole, entirely different situation. The town was open and free. We could come and go. We lived in our own houses. We weren’t living behind a big, long wall or anything.

In Texas, they’ve got a compound that’s surrounded by a fence. And those kids cannot go in or out. And I don’t think most of the women even are free to travel in or out. I know there are underage marriages going on there.

How do you know that?

Bistline: I just know those people. I’m related to pretty near every one of them. I knew them growing up, I know what they’re taught, and I know how they live. Have you listened to some of the answers those girls they’ve questioned give when they ask them if they know of any underage pregnancies? It don’t take no psychological genius to know those girls are lying. You can tell they’re lying by their answers.

So it’s definitely going on, and it needed to be stopped. And I don’t know how else they could’ve done it. They went in there with guns drawn and all that because they didn’t know what to expect. They’d lived through the Waco thing. I don’t blame them for that. What they do now, though is crucial. Those kids need to get back with their mothers…Now the ones that have been molested, that’s a different story. They need to be taken care of and put in protective custody. But you’re probably not going to find more than I guess maybe 15 out of the 400. I don’t know how many of the 400 were girls, but if they find 15 of them that are pregnant or have had children under the age of 17, I would be surprised if there are any more than that.

Not being there, not being part of it, not being able to know what all the answers are, I can’t really say for sure. But I know from our own experiences here when women and children were taken from us, they didn’t come back for nearly two years.

Do you think what’s happening in Texas will mean the end for the Yearning for Zion compound?

Bistline: It depends entirely on what they do. If they don’t return the children back there, then there’ll be some kind of a break-up. But if they return the children, the compound will go on. If they return them and they do go back, it needs to be monitored.

In some of the footage from the compound, you see Warren Jeffs’ photo on the walls. To what degree is he still in charge of the FLDS?

Bistline: Oh, he’s their god, sure. They’re taking orders from him. He dictates through his henchmen. He’s allowed to make phone calls from behind bars. Write letters.

What do you think the answer to this problem is – especially the underage marriages?

Bistline: They’re not going to stop the polygamy thing. I think that they could stop the underage stuff. The first thing that needs to happen is that the children need to be placed in public schools. So they’re taught correct history, science and so on. Rather than just be totally brainwashed. Then the men that are responsible for the atrocities need to be taken out of their midst, so they don’t have the power to dictate and control them. If they could get someone who was a decent person to be the leader...See, they strictly accord to what their leader says. If he tells them not to marry underage girls, then they won’t. If he tells them to, then he will.

These people are victims. The women and kids are all victims. The young men they give these young wives to, they’re victims. There are a few people I know in their society that would make good leaders that would do what I’m saying. But they’re not going to appoint those leaders, because then [those loyal to Jeffs] would lose control. It’s going to assimilate slowly. Take Colorado City for instance. A large portion of Colorado City people no longer follow Warren Jeffs. It was just a matter of them having their freedom, when he lost the power to kick them out of their homes if they didn’t do what he said. Then they no longer paid him allegiance.

So they need to give those people their freedom. Open those gates, let them come and go. I’m talking about if they go back into the compound. Divide the dormitories into individual apartments, living quarters for individual families. Just give them their freedom, that’s what it amounts to. It would make a lot of difference. If they allow those girls to wait until they’re of age to decide if they’re going to marry that man who they’re told to marry, the biggest percentage of them won’t do it. They’ll pick someone their own age. And that’s the problem. That’s why they’d have to marry them young. Otherwise they’d not able to have the influence to coerce them.

Those girls on TV kept saying there’s no force, there’s no force. They have their choice, they have their choice. I’ll tell you what their choice is. The choice is: You marry who you’re told or else you’re locked up in that room until you decide to marry him. And if you reach 17 before you decide to marry him, then you’re just kicked out and you’re on your own. That’s the choice they have. Now if that’s force or not, you tell me.

Is there physical coercion going on, beatings? Or is it mostly psychological?

Bistline: In some respects, yes, there is [physical coercion] They believe that their leader Warren Jeffs has absolute control over them in this life and the next. If they don’t obey him, then they’re condemned to hell when they die. It’s the greatest power they have to control those kids. That’s why they need to get into public schools to start learning some of the truth.

Do you think the Arizona authorities have done enough to address the problem of underage marriages in Colorado City?

Bistline: I think they’re doing what they should do. I think they’re handling it right. Whenever they can get a girl to make a complaint, they arrest the man and prosecute him. You can’t prosecute someone unless you have evidence of a complaint. If they can’t get a girl to complain against a man, then they can’t prosecute him. But the few that they have prosecuted now have changed the situation. The men don’t want to marry a younger girl now because they don’t know if they’ll turn against them or not. It’s making a difference. Arizona and Utah both are handling it as they should.

Are there other polygamist sects like this that don’t follow Jeffs?

Bistline: There are half a dozen different splinter groups. There’s Winston Blackmore in Canada. There’s John Timpson of Centennial Park. There’s a group back in Missouri, and there are others. Different ones that don’t follow Warren Jeffs. But there are a lot of people living in Colorado City that really don’t have allegiance to anybody. They’ve just got their freedom, and so they’re just kinda going down the road. Some have joined the regular LDS. My wife and I have joined the regular LDS.

Were you at one time a member of the FLDS?

Bistline: I was a member of the group, of the cult. But it was never the FLDS until about 1987 when we filed a lawsuit to get the deeds or security in our homes. Then they drummed up that name FLDS, so they could hide behind a religious entity. They never really filed a written document organizing an FLDS until about 1990. I’d broken away from them in about ’84 or ’85. I was a member of the cult. That’s all it is, a cult. But I was never a part of them when it was the FLDS.

How did people refer to it before it took FLDS as a name?

Bistline: They referred to it as the group, or the priested group. The priested work. Then they had the United Effort Plan that was the trust that owned the property [of FLDS members]. Whoever the leader was had full control of that trust. Whatever he said, that’s what happened. Now the state of Utah took that away from Jeffs and put it in the hands of a man named Bruce Wisan who is now the man who is administering that trust. So he cannot kick people out of their homes. [Jeffs] was kicking people out of their homes if they would not give him the $1000 a month he was demanding from them.

What was your experience of the Short Creek raid?

Bistline: They didn’t arrest me, because I was 18, and back then a male didn’t reach maturity until you were 21. The juvenile court said we have no jurisdiction over you. And I was under 21, so the superior court says we have no jurisdiction over you. So I was just left to my own devices. But my mother and my three siblings were taken. The men were arrested and taken to the county jail. They were taken to Kingman, Arizona, and they held them for a week. Long enough to get the women and kids out of there. They plea-bargained. They pled guilty to the conspiracy to commit open and notorious cohabitation, and were sentenced to one year probation. The women and children were gone for two years before they were able to come back home. My mother was gone for almost 2 years.

How did they put them up?

Bistline: The [authorities] declared the children wards of the state. They let the children stay with their mothers. And they would give the mothers an allowance. Out of that, she would pay the rent, take care of utilities and food and so on. It was hardly enough. They suffered. There’s no question about it. But that’s how they handled it.

Was this an incredibly traumatic thing for you?

Bistline: It wasn’t so much for me. I was a young buck. It was a big adventure to me. I was smuggling women back and forth across the Utah side. See, the Utah side was not bothered. Arizona had no authority. Utah refused to participate with them. There were people still living on the Utah side, which is now Hildale. So I was smuggling people back over to their homes in Utah – the women, so they wouldn’t get picked up by the cops. That’s the way it was for me.

It was traumatic, in some ways. The two years that my mother was gone, and so on. I didn’t get to see my girlfriend but a couple of times. She was one of the ones that was taken. Eventually we were married. She’s my wife now.

Where was she taken?

Bistline: To Phoenix. Then they moved her up to Winslow. Then eventually over to Snowflake, with her mother. She was 15 at the time.

Was it traumatic for your mother?

Bistline: Oh, I don’t know. She took everything in stride. It was religious persecution. My mom reveled in being persecuted. I don’t know if you can understand it. She didn’t have a hard time. She had a brother that lived in Mesa. They put her with her brother when she first down there.

What was your view of Gov. Howard Pyle, the man who ordered the 1953 Short Creek Raid?

Bistline: To me he was just a despot. The public sentiment went against him. And that’s what’s going to happen in Texas. The way they’re interviewing those girls, they’re crying because they can’t have their kids. They’re going to lose the public support. That’s what happened with Short Creek.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

[Tammy8]

I hope this plan is addressed by some professional child psychologist- to me I would think it would be really harmful to these children to try to indoctrinate them into another religion. I think for one thing it is just wrong- but for another thing these children were raised where their whole life revolved around a religion, in order to change that to another belief I would think they would have to be “deprogrammed” first. I think it would be wrong and possibly cause them serious problems, and if it is going to be attempted they better have a professional helping every step of the way or they will do more harm than good with these children.

I think whoever takes care of these children needs to focus on slowly introducing them to new things and new ideas over a long period of time, and teach them to think for themselves. I don’t think any religion should be forced on them- if the caregivers are religious people the children will pick up on the differences and should be able to process that on their own. One day they may want to embrace a new religion but I would not in any way push it if it was up to me.

[MizSterious]

Indeed. So I guess the TRLA prefers the kids go back to slavery and sexual abuse. They say they’re advocates, and I guess that’s what they advocate.

[Alice in Wonderland]

From a comment thread at gosanangelo:

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 18, 2008 at 10:29 p.m.
I’m a rancher who owns a ranch that borders the northern side of the compound. I’ve seen this coming for many years and I thank the judge, the state of Texas, and the lord that these kids are finally safe. The only reason why I care is I’ve seen these kids who live a so called “wonderful and spiritual life” working in fields from sun up to sun down. Women and children used at the mens disposal. Its disgusting and as far as not having any warm blood the fact that you support these men who rape young girls, I believe I would think before I speak next time, sir.

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 18, 2008 at 10:52 p.m.
I’ve worked in cotton fields my whole life. The moment I understood that I couldn’t run in front of the tractor or I would get hurt my dad had me working on the ranch. There is nothing wrong with these children working in the fields. My dad had me working and if he told me to stay until midnight I stayed until midnight. My problem I can’t go in much detail about however I can say there were some children in the field that didn’t need to be there for their safety. I wish I could go further but I have restrictions on what I can say. The way these children day in, day out was scary. I usually only see them on weekends however I always see them doing things that children don’t need to be doing on a daily basis. The only thing that gets under my skin is hearing these women talk about their childs daily acitivities and their schooling because I know different. It is all a show trying to get the media’s and the country’s sympathy.

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 18, 2008 at 10:55 p.m.
These children are too young to know what is best for them. That is the reason why they are considered children. It is their parents job to raise them and they haven’t been doing that in a safe manner. They are programmed to say whatever they are told. Their lives will change for the better ask anyone who has ever excaped the walls of the compound

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 18, 2008 at 11:05 p.m.
CPS for the most part has been pretty straight forward. I was on my ranch the day raid and many thereafter and saw everything go down.

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 18, 2008 at 11:20 p.m.
All I know is these men and women on the compound aren’t what is best for these children. Other than that I have no idea.Just because they are different from me dosn’t make them worng, they MOLEST LITTLE GIRLS that is what makes them wrong.I’m judging them by the standards

Posted by SanAngeloian on April 19, 2008 at 12:48 a.m.
They didn’t answer the questions and that is why they are away from their parents tonight. All these people had to do was say who their parents are and their brothers and sisters are and this would have been over. If they were forth coming with information and not hiding heir freakish ways of living then maybe they would be together tonight. They are doing DNA testing because no mother nor the children would claim one another. The compound is more to blame than the government. They say they are unaware of any underage girls being pregnant knowing there are at least 5. They lie every chance they can. The girls can keep quiet the DNA testing will do the talking then the truth will put these men away. Everyone says Sarah doesn’t exist but if you listen to the testimony from these girls they say there are many 16 y/o Sarahs on the compound and that many have had babies around the time claimed. There are so many lies coming from the compound members that the CPS has no other choice but to hold on to the children.

If you want to read the entire thread, it’s here:
http://www.gosanangelo.com/news/2008/apr/18/breaking-news-state-time-being-will-retain-custody/

[MizSterious]

"But if they return the children, the compound will go on. If they return them and they do go back, it needs to be monitored."

Chilling. And you KNOW it won't be easy monitoring that place. Maybe impossible.

[MHGinTN]

Typical lawyering ... the 'mothers' won't identify which are their children, all their children, the sperm donors won't all submit to DNA testing to establish who is in what family, yet the damned lawyers demand the 'families' be allowed their day in court before protection from the liars and pedophiles can occur. How does that old joke go, 'a sunken ship with a thousand lawyers on board demanding an impossible rescue is a good start'?

[greyfoxx39]

I agree. While I think they need to learn the truth eventually, too, planning on taking the just to convert them makes me bristle.

One can't let that one bad-apple congregation affect the push for more church involvement in helping with this, IMO.

The case is new, and there hasn't been time for many churches to mobilize their members to help. Maybe someone will take on the project of researching the numbers of congregations stating they intend to do something. I would think that FReeper activism in our individual churches would be good.

This thread might be a good place to post something along the lines of a weekly recap on that subject.

Comments?

[mouser]

You cannot “convert” someone to your religion

Sure you can why do you think various churches send missionary's all over the world.

[Froufrou]

It isn’t their fault, but it is true that they can’t be ‘mothers’ when that term has been used collectively and selectively to bunch and exclude [when young boys are extracted] to the extent that it isn’t parenting at all, it’s more of a shared partnership.

I repeat: it is against the law. All 50 states, probably, so they choose where to live based on other factors, since they have no regard for THE LAW.

[greyfoxx39]

New thread on the transitions faced by the children.

[Will88]

“The Third Court of Appeals has decided to hear arguments over whether the state of Texas can place children from the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints currently in its custody into foster care without giving each of their families the opportunity to defend themselves in court, according to a press release.”

Now that won’t go over well here. Imagine that, someone actually thinks the individual rights of the FLDS members should be considered before their children are seized and herded all over the state of Texas like cattle to the sale barns. Heck, they’re all same. None of them know who their parents are(a proven fact for each child, right?), they dress funny and act funny. Round ‘em up and head ‘em out. ALL guilty on appearances and rumors alone. Who needs evidence about individual cases?

And wasn’t that a wonderful eyewitness report concerning the the church group making plans to convert these little heathens to Methodism. Praise the Lord. It’s so reassuring to hear that the state is using such good sense and choosing such appropriate foster homes for the kids, and respecting their rights and religious freedoms. Nothing but the highest degrees of professionalism every step of the way. How appropriate that the state prepped the recipients of the little heathens so well in advance. They did that. Didn’t they?

[MizSterious]

Well, once they find out which children belong to which mothers, perhaps many of them can be returned to their mothers—provided there’s been no abuse.