Posted on 04/21/2008 7:29:14 AM PDT by JRochelle
Again, you misstate our beliefs. Anyone who believes in Christ is a “Christian” to one degree or another. We do believe that baptism and other ordinances have to be done by Priesthood authority.
Well, you claim to be a lawyer, so I suppose spinning is your profession. There isn’t enough Dramamine in the state to allow me to read more of your whirling dervish posts, so ‘Have a nice day’ ...
That theory just one of many conspiracy theories that float around the blogesphere.
If the FLDS raid were timed according to Mitt Romney's political future, that would have happened while he was still in contention for the Presidential campaign. Another point, that petition was also signed by Paul Weirich, a former Romney supporters. He saw the light on Romney's phony conservative conversion.
You need to re-read the second citation below and note the bolded words
“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl
What you are describing is a partial apostasy - which would, by the prophet's own words, invalidate the necessity for the creation of mormonism. Complete means complete.
My suggestion to you lame mainstreamers is this: if you can’t take the heat, learn to be civil. If you look back over the past year, you will find that every blasted one of you has nailed me with some smarmy remark BEFORE I ever dropped one on any of you. I am frankly quite tired of it and you can either make peace now or be prepared to take it for all time.
That is so true. That is the basis of the difference between us. You would defend polygamy as ordained by God on occasion.
That is contrary to everything I was ever taught in my church. Marriage is sacred and it is between one man and one woman. If that isn't good enough, then divorce is an option for many. But to be married to two people at the same time is against all that Jesus taught.
I don't think the average Mormon understands how vile we truly believe it is.
I am sure you find the thought of incest as disgusting as I do. I view polygamy as equally disgusting and vile.
I’ve already explained this. It was “complete” in the sense that Priesthood authority was completely gone, and no church had the fulness of the Gospel as Christ — and the prophets who preceded him — taught it. If priesthood authority had remained anywhere, there would have been no need for a restoration.
But as for total disagreement with Christian doctrine, that has never happened, not with Joseph Smith or anyone else. We believe in the Bible, and much of our doctrine is the same as mainstream Christianity.
It’s not the way I see it OMM. In fact I distinctly remember it the other way round.
You Mormons need to learn to be civil to us apostates. Your prophet even told you to.
As for Lehi stopping there to bury the dead...well, I'm leaning towards Nehom was imaginary to begin with, so...
So, overall, I AM disputing a place called "Nahom."
I am also disputing that Joseph Smith couldn't have known about it, because I am leaning towards "Joseph Smith pulled it out of his arse or made it up out of whole cloth."
What happened to the three Nephites that were left upon the earth? What happened to their priesthood? How about the apostle John? Mormons teach that the Apostle John never died and is still upon the earth. What happened to his priesthood authority?
I don’t think that they were saying that the FLDS raid was timed to damage Romney, I think that they were saying that the news of the raid is being used and promoted by the Huckabee supporters, that Huckabee is still working to get the VP slot.
Well, you have a poor memory. I came out here to talk doctrine and I have now learned the truth: The Lord said that it was a waste to cast pearls before swine and mainstreamers here on FR have proven Him correct.
There is no reference to priestcraft anywhere in any of the citations I have come across. Again, complete = complete.
But as for total disagreement with Christian doctrine, that has never happened, not with Joseph Smith or anyone else.
"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171
"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225
“But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be. "
Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 18, p. 172
"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon."
- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, p. 324
“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
"This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..."
- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 164-165
Your apologetic is out of step with the historic teachings of your prophets and apostles.
We believe in the Bible, and much of our doctrine is the same as mainstream Christianity.
Only as it is correctly translated - and then only if it doesn't conflict with revelation. Same doctrine? Well if you equate polytheism to monotheism for starters and accept an archaeologically unsupportable document as a guide book. Or if you accept as moral the illegal actions of a prophet who committed adultry, bigamy all the while preaching god's revelation that mormons were to follow the laws of the land - even though those laws made his plural marraiges illegal.
There are two kinds of “wrongs.” Some things are “malum in se,” meaning they are wrong in themselves, like murder or fraud. Some things are “malum prohibitum,” meaning that they are “wrong” because the law prohibits them, like driving over a certain speed.
To Mormons, polygamy is “malum prohibitum,” because both the law of the land and our ecclesiastical authority currently prohibit it. I for one am quite pleased about the current circumstance. Polygamy would be hard to live, and, even in the pioneer days, only about 3 percent of the Mormons lived polygamy. Out of all my faithful, committed Mormon ancestors, only one lived in polygamy, and he did so because he was asked to do so. There were more female converts than male coming into the Salt Lake Valley, they were a thousand miles from other civilization, women had no independent means of support in those days, and the young women wanted the blessing of children.
Jesus says nothing in the Bible about polygamy, one way or the other. Paul said that certain church leaders should have one wife. Jacob, in the Book of Mormon, said that the rule for his people was one wife, although he acknowledged that God could command differently if He wished.
Abraham, Jacob/Israel, and Moses were prophets who were polygamous. Others may have been, as well. We don’t know.
Before anyone hops on this post and starts accusing me of being sympathetic to “child rapists,” I believe that the FLDS are wrong to be practicing polygamy, and that God does not approve of it. I also think that, if some of the things I have read about their practices are true, some of those leaders are classic examples of abuse of authority. The “child rape” is actually statutory rape of teenage girls. I haven’t heard of any forcible rape. And, the underage marriages are not all to old men. The one that Warren Jeffs is serving time for was a marriage that he arranged between a 14 year old girl and a 19 year old boy. He was tried as as accomplice to [statutory] rape.
But, if they would leave the underage girls alone — and if they are not living off our taxes — then they are wrong, but no worse than a huge number of “baby daddies” in our culture. In fact, they are better because they parent the children and provide for them.
And it’s hard to get all misty eyed about these people in Texas trying to force the FLDS into “normalcy” when we live in a culture where “normal” teenage girls are so promiscuous that 25 percent of them have venereal diseases.
But, to the extent these men engage in “spiritual marriages” to underage girls, they should be prosecuted to the same degree — and no more — than anyone else having relations with underage girls is prosecuted.
I can’t see any justification for breaking up all these families, though, and taking little children away from their mothers. Texas is only supposed to protect children who are being abused or who are in “imminent danger” of abuse. Underage “marriage” is the abuse. But none except post-pubescent teenage FLDS girls are in “imminent danger” of that.
I don't know, did some new egyptian menu that he translated suddenly appear?
Joseph smith was a great guy, baseless slander not with standing, however you guys are a poor johnny one note and it gets old.
Great guy, married the wives of other men, had newspapers burned down because they exposed to the world his polygamy, scammed people at Kirkland, condoned the Danites, the list is endless. Faked the translation of the Kinderhook plates, faked the translation of the Book of Breathing, faked the translation of the Greek Psalter, faked a vision of god after Cowdery exposed his affair with Fanny Alger, uses it to threaten his wife Emma. Great guy, the folks in TX love him.
For slander to be baseless, there must be without grounds or a factual basis. Unfortunately for you, there are subtantial grounds for the charges against joey as well as a factual basis.
Your collection of quotations is a mixed bag. Obviously, some use the word “Christian” to mean the primitive Christian church, as Christ established it. Others use the word “Christian” to mean all those who currently profess belief in Christ, but deny the reality and existence of the priesthood, modern-day prophecy and revelation, and all the things that existed in the primitive church. So, to the extent the quotations are considered doctrinal, they are no inconsistent with what I have said.
And yes, we do believe that there are inconsistencies in the Bible, and that you have be careful about translation. Ehrman (not a Mormon) says there are about 30,000 inconsistencies in the different, old Biblical texts.
As for the Nicene Creed, it has never made sense to me that some modern Christians insist on conformity with the Nicene Creed in order to be “Christian.” It didn’t exist at the time of Christ. It was negotiated about 400 years later, under duress, when Constantine called the theologians together to settle the question of whether God was three acting as one, or one acting as three. You’d be just as likely to get doctrinal truth out of the General Assembly of the United Nations.
But, you’re free to believe it, if you wish. It’s not in the Bible, though.
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