Posted on 04/21/2008 7:29:14 AM PDT by JRochelle
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Shortly after the raid began on the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch, a group of Mormon missionaries sat down to eat at a restaurant here. A man shouted out "compound!"
"There was this guy. He held up a knife and yelled at us," said Elder Tyler Duffy from Orem.
Some of the fallout from the raid on the YFZ Ranch is being felt by members and missionaries for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While the FLDS Church is not connected in any way to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, some Mormon faithful have said they feel they are being found guilty by association.
"There are some people here that believe anything bad about Mormons and that's what they're going to do," said Charles L. Webb, who serves as president of the Abilene, Texas, stake.
The LDS Church's presence in this part of Texas is small. The Abilene stake covers an area 25,000 square miles in size with about 3,000 members. There are only two LDS chapels in San Angelo, but a number of Baptist and other evangelical Christian churches. It's the polar opposite of Utah, where the LDS Church is the dominant faith.
In repeated statements, leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have differentiated between the two faiths and expressed disappointment that some news media outlets have lumped the two together.
"Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, often called Mormons, do not practice polygamy and they have not practiced polygamy for over a century," Elder Quentin L. Cook, an LDS apostle, said in a video clip the church recently posted on YouTube. The LDS Church has said there is no such thing as a "fundamentalist Mormon," although an estimated 37,000 people who practice it consider themselves as such. Fundamentalists argue that the LDS Church has strayed from its original doctrine by abandoning the practice of polygamy in 1890.
Here in the Bible belt, many LDS members have had to explain the differences in their faiths — the practice of polygamy being the chief example.
Clinton Hudson, a student at Sonora High School, is a member of a Christian student fellowship. During a lunchtime meeting, he said one student said they should pray for the children taken in the raid. Another student said they should "pray for the Mormons."
"I approached her and said, 'They're not Mormons. They're fundamentalists. They broke off from the church' and described our history and how they broke off. It really helped a lot," Hudson said Sunday. "It was a great opportunity to get them to understand there's a difference between them and us."
Not everyone is interested in hearing their explanations.
Duffy said he was speaking with a man interested in converting to the LDS Church. After the raid, the man gave them back a copy of the Book of Mormon, saying he did not want to hear from them again.
"He didn't even give us time to explain," Duffy said.
As they go door-to-door, the missionaries have had to alter their introductions a little to clarify the differences between the two faiths.
"We're not from the church in Eldorado, but we share this message," said Elder Nicolas Librandi, from Murray.
Some have lashed out at the missionaries, blaming polygamy and allegations of child-bride marriages on the LDS Church. But some say there is more interest in the mainstream church, and its message.
"The purposes of God won't be frustrated," said Elder Ryan Bartley, from Carmichael, Calif.
Webb said he has discouraged members from helping out in the name of the LDS Church to avoid confusion between the two faiths, but said they should offer their services as individuals. The local Baptist congregations have contracts to provide relief services in disaster situations.
San Angelo 2nd Ward Bishop Jeffrey Bushman was contacted by a chaplain helping the FLDS women when they were being housed at Fort Concho. The women had requested copies of the Book of Mormon.
He sent them some copies.
"They didn't have anything or bring anything with them, I guess, and they wanted some scriptures and they asked for the Book of Mormon," Bushman said. "I didn't mind. We don't ever mind giving out (copies of the) Book of Mormon to people."
Which universities have done the research? What "discoveries" are you speaking of? What kind of documentation?
S. Kent Brown, the "expert" who does most of the speaking, is a Mormon. His qualifications are that has taught for thirty-one years at Brigham Young University, where he is the Director of FARMS and on the executive council of the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. He is editor of the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies. He served as the director of the Brigham Young University Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. He was a fellow of the American Research Center in Egypt, where he worked on ostraca at the Coptic Museum in Old Cairo. He has also been a fellow of the David M. Kennedy Center in Provo.
Are there any, non-speculative, non-biased, independent (i.e., non-LDS, non-BYU)scholarly eworks out there that give credible evidence?
He was your founding prophet, he was the provider of most of your revelations, he was the beginner of mormon polygamy. Yep, he can't be locked up stairs like your crazy aunt.
Allow me to address your claim, but I don't frequent forums attacking other religions...
Come on, DU, don't pretend that you've never initiated any FReeper post discussion talking about the alleged 100% Christian apostasy (what Mormons call the universal apostasy) and/or the "restoration."
Let me give you an analogy:
Say that in my illustration I am…
…a fellow telecommuter…
…a new kind of Mormon "fundie” you've never seen the likes of—a member of the NEW Church of the Latter-day Secondborns…
…and I convey to you the “A,B,Cs” of Latter-day Secondborns re: our “revelation” about the Salt-Lake based Mormon church.
What are those “A,B,Cs?”
(1) I not only tell you that we think Salt Lake City had run off course in 1890 re: D&C 132, but…
(2) every Salt Lake City HQ creed was an "abomination unto God
(3) all of mainstream Mormonism's leaders were "corrupt."
(4) (I added, BTW, again for illustration purposes, that there wasn’t an LDS temple ward anywhere worthy of joining…’cause they all feigned godliness but lacked his power' & authority)
Now, DU, you’re a generally good-natured guy. I’ve observed that your feathers don’t get ruffled very easily. But even with your generally “optimistic” attitude, I still have problems thinking that you wouldn’t digest these “A,B,Cs” testimony in the same way that the Lady Lawyer filtered PR approach might.
According to Lady Lawyer’s filtered version, if a new “fundie” Mormon tells you DU, that all your creeds are abominable, that all your professors are corrupt, & that all your church outlets are wrong, powerless, & authorityless, you’re suppose to interpret these words in a “kinder, gentler” manner.
You see, DU what the Latter-day Secondborn “A,B,Cs” really mean” is that…
We believe that much truth, but not all, remains in mainstream Mormonism….They did the best they could by interpreting the standard works.. And there were and are many good people among them. Latter-day Secondborn Mormons believe that all people have the Light of Christ, and that they can respond to truth no matter where they hear it….But to say that is not to deny the good faith of mainstream Mormons who show some semblance of Mormon love and who recognize Christ as their Savior. [Exact words of LL except changes made from “Christianity” to “Mormonism”; from “Christians” to “Mormons”; “Mormons” to “Latterday Secondborn Mormons” and from “Bible” to “Standard Works”]
There. Now that I’ve run my Latterday Secondborn restoration gospel thru the Lady Lawyer soft & cuddly, let-down-easy filter machine, I hope you are thereby “less offended” by the Latterday Secondborn restoration story.
Beyond that, DU, even if I agreed with your premise...that you don't go out of your way to "play offense" against Christians (which I don't, BTW, because you have indeed preached upon the alleged universal apostasy of Christendom), the fact is that you slam Christianity all the time as you “play defense.”
I mean, come on, DU, every time you preach “restoration” we’re not (at least I’m not) fooled. If I came to you & said, “Hey, DU, I heard your troubled marriage was restored. That’s great! It’s great to know that you & Christian are re-united. I was beginning to have grave concerns. I thought your marriage was done.”
DU, I'd really begin to wonder at your definition of "restoration" if you responded in the following manner: “Well, my marriage was ‘restored’—but not to Christian. I dumped her. You see all her formal beliefs were abominable; she was corrupt in all she said; she was just wrong and wrong for me. She pretended to be godly, but God was far from her. Nope. I dumped her. I married another. Yup. Josephine is my new bride. I just know that when I die, Josephine will call me & give her consent for me to become a god with her.”
That, DU, is the reality of the “restoration” LDS preach…not Lady Lawyer’s sweet & lawyer-covered version.
Finally…even if you dropped talking about the alleged Christian full apostasy & the LDS restoration (which you can’t, ‘cause it’s among the top 3 or 4 LDS doctrines...I mean the flip side of almost every LDS “testimony” is that every non-LDS Church is the false church)…you would still “delegate” your attacks if you are indeed a temple-worthy, tither (or even if you’re a regular giver to the church).
Your tithe pays for the Pearl of Great Price to be published & distributed worldwide. And that includes vv. 18-20 of JS-H. Your tithe pays for LDS curricula about the alleged apostasy & restoration. Your tithe sends 60,000+ missionaries around the world (yeah, I know most LDS families pay for their sons & daughters to be out & about, but somebody foots the bills of the missionary presidents’ stipends & the materials used, etc.)
Called the BIL who is also involved in the Stake Missionary program.
He said there was no way, no how, the LDS Church has sent Mormon Missionaries into the Short Creek area.
In fact they are told to stay away from Apostate groups to “not maintain any affiliation or sympathy with apostate groups.” It is one of the Temple Recommend questions.
Good luck. All he has ever provided me is the "weekly world news" kind of faith promoting rumor evidence.
I hate to tell you how many baptists have been given a Book of Mormon. I guess they are polygamists too. Baptist Polygamy.
I notice you skipped over my point that Protestantism wouldn’t exist if Protestants did not decide that the Catholic church had “apostatized” from the church established by Christ.
Also, the “universal apostasy” does not mean that every point of doctrine believed by every Christian on earth was wrong. It means that the priesthood authority bestowed by Christ on His apostles was completely gone from the earth, and that the remaining churches were wrong on doctrine to one degree or another. But, I think you knew that. It’s just easier to get people riled up if you make it sound like Mormons believe that there was no truth left, anywhere in the world, and that all Christians are 100% wrong. Which we don’t.
But don't the polygamous sects accept the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine & Covenants as inspired works? Don't they try to follow the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to the letter? Doesn't this qualify them as Mormon? If not, why?
Well, they certainly don't seem to be following these words of Joseph Smith:
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Perhaps the caveats "as far as it is translated correctly" and "and so forth" should have included something like "as long as it doesn't conflict with section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants"...ya think?
|
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Joseph Smith |
Perhaps the caveats "as far as it is translated correctly" and "and so forth" should have included something like "as long as it doesn't conflict with section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants"...ya think?
Hmm. Maybe Warren Jeffs is whiling away his time in prison coming up with an "inspired version" of the Articles of Faith...
Then you need to explain that to your founder, especially the second citation -
“I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: ‘they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.’”
Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Joseph Smith–History, v. 1, pp. 8–26
“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl
Need I cite other prophets, seers and apostles from mormonism who taught the same.
He could call it the "Warren Jeffs' Translation", right?
He who controls the past controls the future.
I swear they don’t know or aren’t aware of WHAT they believe.
How come the “gentiles” have to show them their own Prophets words? Amazes me that we actually know more about their history and beliefs than they do.
They were “all” wrong, in the sense that none of them had the priesthood, and all had some improper doctrine. Some of our doctrine is consistent with that of mainstream Christianity. Therefore, Joseph Smith could not have meant it the way you want to interpret it.
As for “having a form of godliness, but . . . deny[ing] the power thereof,” that is a good way of describing what had happened.
Mainstream Christians were preaching that the power of prophesy and revelation were gone. The power of the priesthood was gone. The temple ordinances were gone. All of those are manifestations of power that were gone from the
church as established by Christ.
vile seems to be the “word of the day.”
The LDS don’t believe anyone outside of a Mormon baptism can actually be a Christian as defined by Orthodox Christianity ... try not to play the purposely deceptive ‘bait and switch’ game too rapidly, your adulterous peepstone false prophet has too many holes for you to plug at that pace.
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