Posted on 04/18/2008 6:30:59 PM PDT by granite
Hello Judith. What a mess this is. You want to protect children. You want to be faithful to the Constitution. I have actually heard very little about the Mormon connection and polygamy and much speculation regarding the pedophilia. I am so sorry for these people...the women and the children. I think,(without any real facts) that the StATe of Texas is trying to do what is best for the children. I hope so. I hope we are not looking at people in authority like the D.A. from Durham, North Caorlina, Mike Nifong. If the state has only the right intent, this will work out. If someone is trying to further his political career, it will all go south and be bad for Texas, the children, their mothers....everyone. Someone with the wisdom of Solomon is needed for this mess.
Congrats. You missed the point about the 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 yr old girls being used for sex and baby-making machines by older men. And that is what the FLDS church teaches and practices... prevaricating on this thread notwithstanding.
Although I myself never called it pedophilia, the point never has been over what official word to call it.
But since you like what you say you like on this thread, I get where you’re coming from and am not surprised at...your straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
The mess you rightly speak of was created by Warren Jeffs, his henchmen and other leading men of the FLDS church.
They put everything in place that has led to where we are today.
A seperatist nation within a nation so to speak, holding within in it those who are unable to protect themselves from whatever wrongs it enacts in the name of the “prophets” of its declared religion.
Surrounded, in this case, by the state of Texas, and the rest of the United States of America.
I’m sorry for the helpless ones inside that it has taken this long to rend the veil.
The messiness of that rending is inevitable.
I keep remembering WHO placed the veil in between and propagated the doctrine that enslaves precious souls within.
FLDS Prophet’s Nephew Testifies Against Polygamists...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2004198/posts
So I should believe you over this guy?.....
As the nephew of Warren Jeffs, the self-proclaimed prophet of the polygamist compound in El Dorado, Texas, Brent Jeffs says that he knows all too well the misery and heartache of sexual abuse inside the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Brent Jeffs was a victim of rape and molestation at the hands, he says, of his uncle, Warren, who is currently imprisoned. In fact, it was Brent Jeffs who first filed charges of sexual assault against Warren Jeffs.
.... If That's a "witchhunt" it looks like a target rich environment...
"The entire cult, as I would put it, is run by complete fear. Everything they do is run by fear. They control the women and the children all by fear," Brent told ABC's John Quinones.
As another long day at court is expected today and authorities try to determine what is to become of the 416 children taken from the El Dorado compound, attention has been focused on the abuse of young girls, but Brent says the boys were also in danger.
"When I was a little boy, around 5 or 6, just attending the regular Sunday school, even when my grandfather was the prophet at the time, behind closed doors, Warren was sneaking around behind and would come down and escort me down the hall and into the bathroom and molest me as a kid. Threatening me with eternal damnation if I did not do exactly what he said."
Brent says he didn't complain because he thought he "was going to be in trouble. I thought I'd burn in hell for saying something. That's why I kept it a secret."
He says it happened to many other young boys, including Brent's two brothers, who were either students of Warren Jeffs or who lived inside his compound. That's why Brent Jeffs has come from his home in Salt Lake City to Texas to testify against the leaders of the El Dorado compound.
He believes the compound's residents are in danger.
"The wives and the women in here may not show you that they know it, but they are. They're in great danger. Because all they're doing in here is they're abusing all these children and you, they're abusing the women, too. It needs to stop."
"The men in there that have brainwashed these women and children, have convinced them ever since they were babies that this is right. Because they think in their minds they have nowhere else to go."
"The children are in a safe place. I know it seems like a horrible thing right now to have the children separated from the mothers. But, the situation needs to be taken care of & The way things are in here is, you know, when they're all together they're not going to say anything, afraid of the other person telling the higher authority and them getting in trouble. I think when they're by themselves, they may say something."
As close as Brent Jeffs is to the temple of El Dorado, the leaders of his old church will not allow him inside its gates.
"I have hundreds of cousins. I have so much family in there, I know I do. I saw someone on TV the other day, my aunt. My mom's sister, my aunt, who I've know my whole life."
"What do you think should happen to the compound?" Quinones asked.
"You know, as I'm concerned, they can live there and have their own world. It's the abuse. The abuse needs to stop. The women and the children need to have their freedom to choose what they want to do," Brent said. "If they want to leave they can leave. If the women want to leave with their kids, they can. Or, maybe a man wants to leave with his family. It just needs to be like everywhere else. You cannot have this sexual misconduct with all these young kids and all this stuff going on in there. It's not right. It's illegal."
"Someone needs to stand up and say, 'this is wrong.' I'm going to do anything I can to help these poor kids and these moms, if they let me."
.......If that's a "witchhunt" it looks like a target rich environment to me and perhaps you'd care to explain where in the Constitution it says you can enslave and impregnate young women and rule them by fear and indoctrination. I missed that amemndment..
Sorry...can’t say I’ve seen the evidence that absolves the mature women.
I’d like to see more about all the “crimes” granted.
I have never been much on the notion that women or minorities too for that matter don’t have free will for themselves and are simply the victims en masse of men or in the case of minorities...whites.
Hundreds of women utterly victimnized and controlled like robots by some strange horndog religious guys.....hmmm
Hello dear FRiend.
Actually, I do think that the fLDS are not as mysterious as they’d wish, and that there are real facts here that are damning to the lifestyle, most particularly the exploitation of the teens, and the systematic abuse of taxpayer money through welfare fraud.
The trial and conviction of Warren Jeffs, and the stories of some of those who have escaped from the group in other locations are compelling...no one on these threads has said they are lying.
As far as this action by Texas authorities, I tend to support their efforts, and I certainly hope they can right some wrongs, which I think are not really in doubt. No one has impeached the judge’s credibility either. It is a mess, but I think she can handle it.
As far as the Constitution, I’m discouraged. Not in this instance, but in many others, it seems to be treated as nothing much more than a relic. Heartbreaking, and I am not kidding. To try to use our love of the Constitution as a weapon to further brutalize the children of the fLDS makes me feel like something unbelievably precious has been irretrievably broken.
Just a few late thoughts; too melodramatic.
And not just your country, but others as well, and I shall ping you to a story.
In modern usage (and I assume we are both in modern times, perhaps at my peril), there is no distinction between the two terms. In fact, ephebophilia is a lately developed term, having only been formally developed in 1906 (oddly enough, it largely used by advocates for it). It does not appear in DSM-IV classifications and as such, there is no real distinction between the two. Perhaps it makes you feel better to use a different term, but it's still wrong, legally and morally.
The point of org.whodat's original question was to note that young men are often driven from the cult as they are competition for the young brides. Which points out an utterly stark hypocrisy that mothers could be pining for the companionship of their child when they freely and indiscriminately abandon their young men.
Ping to my post above.
There's a world of difference between one who targets the sexually immature versus the sexually mature. In the latter case, it is not necessarily a crime legally, depending on the age. (Morally, I believe that it is, despite this view being counter to much of the world.)
And note that we don't know that it was even ephebophilia, as I said days ago, because it doesn't seem that these men targeted adolescents exclusively, even if they did include them.
The point of org.whodat's original question was to note that young men are often driven from the cult ...
Sleight of hand replacement of the term...org.whodat's said "young boys." Now go back and look at the last line of my post. See it?
(And note that I have pinged org.whodat...it's polite to do so for those you have mentioned in a post.)
I bet these same folks would scream bloody murder when the stormtroopers come in and search their house for weapons based on "it's well known they have illegally held weapons" and a fake phone call.
I tend to disagree with this. There is a degree of difference. It is not a world of difference with the caveat that I'm not sure how you are defining sexual maturity. How are you defining sexual maturity?
If one does not target children exclusively but does target children, is one not a pedophile? I would guess not many people would answer in the affirmative here.
As to the "young boys"/"young men" question, I believe that org.whodat's original question was to point out the fact that this cult is known for ditching its young males like dead weight. I have no idea how you took it, but you seem to be driven to make some sort of point of a difference between "boys" and "men" that I'm not sure has anything to do with org's point. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, org.)
Sir Whodat, my apologies for not pinging you. Thanks, Gondring for correcting my oversight.
First, I am not angry, I just want to see if I can make you understand.
You said: “Sorry...can’t say I’ve seen the evidence that absolves the mature women....I have never been much on the notion that women or minorities too for that matter don’t have free will for themselves and are simply the victims en masse of men or in the case of minorities...whites......
Hundreds of women utterly victimnized and controlled like robots by some strange horndog religious guys.....hmmm”
Let’s take a scenario from history. The millions of people, Jews and Gypsies, dissidents etc. male and female who were herded yet walked into gas chambers of their own “free will” when they clearly outnumbered the Germans. They might have turned and said no, many would have died but their sheer numbers could have overwhelmed the Germans at any point. Why did they not revolt, stand firm etc?
Imagine for a moment yourself, just as you are undergoing this. You, or these people, had just come from a city that was bombed (a new and terrifying experience) or a village invaded by tanks which were new to many. Then they were herded into groups or a ghetto and semi-starved awhile. Then they were herded onto a train and for days or longer given no food, no water, surrounded by dying people, packed in so tight you had to stand. Then beaten out of the cars to men with viscious dogs and whips and told or it was whispered you were going to a bathhouse. Well, that sounds good and you are half near to dead, emotionally, mentally and physically in shock, you go. You may have lingering fears that it can’t be good, but you haven’t got what it takes then to exercise your free will and make a logical or informed decision.
Okay, take these women. The children play “Apocalypse” (you have to read “Escape” to understand that), but they grow up in an authoritarian culture that unlike ours today involves frequent spankings and doing as you are told without question. Sometimes they are abused by other mothers or their own. They learn to get along because, being children with Free Will they have no power whatsoever to exercise it and when they do there is swift punishment.
For the women, they are scarcely into their teens, still growing and they are “assigned” to a much older man who is not only physically able and strong enough to beat them if he wishes, he is sanctioned in doing so. If they try and escape alone or with their children they face more physical, emotional and mental punishment. Good Lord, do you think they are in any way responsible for this!!!
Do you not think that even if you take aside the WWII future gas chamber victim or a girl or woman grown up in this abusive and harsh cult and say suddenly to them, “You are guilty of not exercising your free will!” most won’t know what to say, they will be in a state of shock and incomprehension of what you saying to them.
I know you (and I) am tired of the whining “victim mentality” of some of our current cultures antics but in this case, in this scenario, this does not apply.
Give these women and the victims of WWII some mercy for their human weakness in not being able to stand firm under abuse. Some of us can, most and many cannot. It is far more useful to put blame and responsibility where it needs to go, onto those perpetrating the abuse, onto the Germans treating their victims so, onto the (in this case) men raising and abusing the women of this cult so.
“I’m torn on this one. I absolutely don’t want the kids abused and we should prosecute those that have abused the children. However, this is a bit much stripping children from their mothers is a bit harsh;”
Do you think protecting these victims of child rape from witnesses tampering is a “bit harsh”?
At the very least, the mothers are witnesses to these crimes. Any communications between the mothers and these children would taint the testimony of the children and would be sufficient to cause their testimony to be thrown out of court.
The mothers are not just innocent witnesses. They are co-victims and also co-conspirators with their husbands. These mothers have been indoctrinated by fear and religion to support these types of abuse. It is entirely reasonable to assume that they would instruct their children not to reveal anything about abuse within the temple.
In absolving the women, the mothers, of any guilt here, at minimum collusion and failure to report a crime to possibly even more criminal issues, what do you do with the boys, young men, and men that were raised in the same environment?
Do they also get a pass or are they the only ones who are required under the circumstances, to have "free will"?
Before it is pointed out that is "cult" is only an offshoot, remember it comes from a religion that had practiced polygamy for an extended amount of time.
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