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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Well, at least we agree in the salvation of Christ. You’re more willing to step out on a limb and ‘know’ how predestination comports with the notion of free will.

Notice Luther was referring to the ACT of Judas, and not necessarily Judas himself. Judas committed the act. Is it possible that Jesus knew the act would occur, but only God knew which one?

Jesus certainly held up the possibility of different outcomes - he begged the Father to take the cup of suffering away from Jesus.

Peter denied Jesus three time in public. Jesus Himself said that anyone who denies knowing Him in public, will deny knowing you before His Father. You think Peter’s roasting alongside Judas at this point?

I’m a sheep. I know I’m saved. What I possess doubts about is the nature and mechanism of the struggle between Lucifer and God.

God bless you for not having those doubts, but the scriptures you sight still leave open myriad interpretations.

As for my views amounting to humanism, Jesus was a big believer in humanism. So much so that Lucifer exists ineffably beyond the Love of God, but linked to humanity until God chooses otherwise, perhaps forever.

To be honest, I only know of Secular Humanism, and I’m not an adherent.

Humanism, our connection with God - the definition of Love, and the sanctity that comes in being in the presence of Love; I don’t understand it, but I benefit from it. I know that to be saved is to exist in the presence of Love with God forever. Hell may be many things, but one thing for sure is that you live outside of love - in a place completely devoid of it.

I don’t know why God chose to make humans in the first place, but I am SURE that Lucifer was a murderer from the beginning. The VERY beginning - before humans. What does that even mean? Murder, the concept of it, predating humanity.

I’m comfortable not knowing, and not seeing what the elect saw and see every day. I forget where I read the passage, but it referred to the presence of demons on earth, “And if truly you could perceive their shapes in waking, the very number of them is such that it would blot the daylight.”

I pray daily that I may have the ears to hear God’s will, the mind to understand it, and the courage to carry it out. I pray this for you too, as you certainly have the zeal and courage to know things that scare me to the quick of my being.


272 posted on 04/23/2008 12:40:10 PM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: RinaseaofDs; Gamecock; HarleyD; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Alex Murphy; wmfights; Forest Keeper; ...
Is it possible that Jesus knew the act would occur, but only God knew which one?

No, it is not possible. Unless, of course, you are not a Trinitarian Christian.

Jesus certainly held up the possibility of different outcomes - he begged the Father to take the cup of suffering away from Jesus.

Christ's suffering was His humanity in that He suffered for our sins. There was no possibility for any other outcome since Christ is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Peter denied Jesus three time in public. Jesus Himself said that anyone who denies knowing Him in public, will deny knowing you before His Father. You think Peter’s roasting alongside Judas at this point?

Peter is saved just like every Christian is saved -- by grace through faith in Christ's work on the cross. None of us is saved by our own efforts.

As for my views amounting to humanism, Jesus was a big believer in humanism.

lol. No Jesus was not a believer in humanism. Humanism is believing men and God are on the same footing, with God owing men salvation because they've had the good sense to believe in Christ.

That's not what the Bible teaches us. Grace is what saves us, and grace is unmerited, or else it would be debt. (Romans 4)

Humanism, our connection with God

Humanism is not our "connection with God. Christ is our connection with God. That's pretty basic. (Colossians 1:16-17)

the sanctity that comes in being in the presence of Love

We are not sanctified by being in the presence of love, or else Judas would have been sanctified. We are sanctified by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I don’t know why God chose to make humans in the first place

WESTMINSTER SHORTER CATECHISM
(with Scriptural proofs)

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God,[1] and to enjoy him forever.[2]

I’m comfortable not knowing, and not seeing what the elect saw and see every day.

I don't understand your dividing the "elect" from God's family who have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. They are one and the same thing. Is that some RCC doctrine?

As for comfort, pray for a renewed mind. Some things are known only to God, but a great many Godly truths are made available to us by the Holy Spirit illuminating the Scriptures. If God so wills.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:5-7


278 posted on 04/23/2008 1:36:52 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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