Posted on 04/15/2008 8:34:19 PM PDT by blam
God gets zero glory from having robots chose Him. ZERO. He only gets glory from having free willed individuals chose Him. This is not rocket science.
And it's not Biblical, either. Doesn't it bother you that you're not providing any Scriptural support for these humanistic meanderings that somehow God is beholden to men to save them because their works-based salvation should be good enough for Him?
Honest question. Have you even read Romans 8 and 9?
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:11-16"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
If a person has Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he can be confident he has been graced by God to be among His family. As you said, it’s not rocket science.
You have just flat out lied or distorted to try to support your position, OR you can't read and comprehend basic English! Which is it? Doesn't that bother you?!
What didn't you understand in the following statement I posted to you:
First of all, let me say that I believe we are "saved by grace through faith in Christ," and that is a "gift", LEST NO ONE SHOULD BOAST (as you guys always try to claim that us "free will type" do).
Also what didn't you understand in the following statement I posted:
I can know with 100% certainty that since I choose to accept Christ, His grace will save me and keep me.
You claiming that "God is beholden to men to save them" just because man has to accept God is just plain ridiculous. I would expect you to also be making the following claims: Since 'Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men' (something you said and I agree with), that is making God and His plan of salvation beholden to the 'works of those preaching', blah, blah blah.
Amen Doc.
God is glorified when He is Himself.
God’s mercy is glorified when he heaps His mercy on us. Not by our efforts.
That sounds all pious but you need to explain to the Dr that when he stated "Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men, to live lives that bring glory to His name,", he was in error, since according to you, we can't glorify God by any of our efforts.
Wasn't it Christ who stated, "I am the vine, you are the branches. Without me you can do nothing."? How can we glorify God through our efforts? Our Lord Jesus works through us to shine His light so that we may bring glory to God.
I once heard an analogy that it is similar to a father giving his child money so that he may buy him a Christmas present. I think that is most appropriate as to how God works in our lives. God gives us gifts so that we bring glory to Him.
There isn't anything that you have that hasn't been given to you.
Amen, Harley. Our own works save no one. Christ's work on the cross is the only payment equal to the debt.
There isn't anything that you have that hasn't been given to you.
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
AMEN!
How can we glorify God through our efforts?
Simple. By choosing to use the gifts we receive in a way that does that very thing. It is considered "effort", unless you can convince me that you (or others) do it by going into comas or trances, so that no "effort" is involved.
You might want to ask the Dr to attempt to explain how we can do the following unless we expend some type of effort: "Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men, to live lives that bring glory to His name,".
Now of course if we don't have free wills to choose to do these things then we are just like wild animals, no distinction between us and them. We just act on instinct. No free wills...
You are like a Johnny One-Note on this. No one is saying that our works save us. How many times do I have to make that clear to you. What is the hang up?
Good God this is such a mental block and it should not be. It's a simple concept. Just because God gave man a free will to choose to accept Him or reject Him does not in any way make salvation "works based".
If God gives us the gifts, don't you think that He would also give us the desire to use those gifts?
You might want to ask the Dr to attempt to explain how we can do the following unless we expend some type of effort: "Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men, to live lives that bring glory to His name,".
I'm reminded of the verse:
Now of course if we don't have free wills to choose to do these things then we are just like wild animals, no distinction between us and them. We just act on instinct. No free wills...
You are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. You can't go between the two.
Yes, but some DO NOT CHOOSE to act on those desires. We see that all the time. God gives someone a great gift/talent and they waste it or don't use it. You make the faulty logical conclusion that desire must equal action.
And how is that a reply to my free will comment, i.e. that if we don't have one, we are no different than animals?
Man ALWAYS does what God so desires. I would point to Jonah. He wanted to go the opposite way that God would have him go. Eventually he did what God desired.
We don't have a "free" will. Our wills are corrupt and none of us seek after God. This isn't like the animals since they do not rebel against God willfully.
God redeems us to make us to follow in His footsteps and obey His ordiances. We're not perfect (far from it)-just redeemed.
Haha! You just proved my point. We are not just like animals, BECAUSE we have a free will. otherwise we would just be robots or instainct driven like animals.
You've got to be kidding me?!! Man sins. IT IS NOT GOD'S DESIRE FOR MAN TO SIN. Don't even try to make that claim.
AMEN, Dr. E.! That is the rub. A powerful God verses a weak, and especially IRRESPONSIBLE God (as the Warfield article you have posted before says). The born nature of men is to lust for power. It is therefore understandable that many faiths seek that power even in their relationship with God. As you have said many times, most of us used to think we were in control too.
If we don't have a free will to sin, then God HAS TO HAVE BEEN IRRESPONSIBLE for creating us with the bad flaw you pointed out above.
The only rub here is how you guys never, ever seem to think out the ramifications of the pat answers put forth.
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