Posted on 04/15/2008 8:34:19 PM PDT by blam
Yes, certainly, we agree 110% on this. That's why I disputed the point being made by irishtenor that God would have to "wait around" to see what man choose.
You gave a fragment of a verse wrested out of the context of the totality of Scripture.
You failed to address the passages I gave. Why don’t you exegete Epehsians 1 relative to your precious self worship (aka free will).
Your god 9with a little g) is some milquetoast diety no better than the Greek gods Paul railed against.
A loving father does not let his child run into oncoming traffic, but does what it takes whatever measures needed to protect his child.
Your god only makes salvation a possibility. The God of Abram, Issac, Jacob, Irishtenor, and Gamecock, the God revealed throughout Scripture reaches down and grabs His elect by the heart and says you are Mine. The God of Scripture makes salvation more than a possibility, but a done deal.
So you can do anything you want (kill people, rape, steal, molest children, etc.) because your a lucky dog, one of the chosen ones, whose salvation is absolutely assured.
That is just plain absurd, kooky theology!
By the way, in your church, do they tell people "Hi, some of you are the chosen ones and some of you are not. The ones who are not might as well go kill yourselves now, since there is nothing you can do about it."?
The holes in this kooky theology are just so huge you could drives convoys of mack trucks through them.
Sorry, "your God" is not a heavenly Father at all but the creator of mindless robots, who don't have any say in anything.
Your god 9with a little g) is some milquetoast diety
No, "your God" is scared to death of letting people choose Him and His Son out of love, and must resort to force/compulsion. Your God created people who don't have anything to distinguish them from animals.
Does your god know who will choose him on their own?
If yes, he created them to go to Hell, now didn't he?
If he doesn't know, then he isn't god, even the one of your own making.
Wrong answer. We love him because he first loved us. Hated Esau. It's all in the Bible.
10 point penalty.
Why? Because that is usually a meaningless exercise in debates of this type. I see you are from SC and so probably know many Baptists there that could give you literally 500 scriptures (with 50 pages of analysis) refuting your point of view. Then you'll give your 500 scriptures. And on and on and on in an endless loop. I would rather you think for yourself logically, "Does my theology contradict itself again and again or not make sense?" (Think the format C.S. Lewis used in Mere Christianity).
Here's an example from your home page: I believe that placing your faith in life and death of Christ is the only way to enter the Kingdom.
NO WRONG! Being predestined/elected is the only way to enter the Kingdom according to your theology. What YOU have faith in is meaningless! YOU have no free will to choose anything. See what I mean. HOLES THE SIZE OF MACK TRUCKS!
Potter, Clay
AMEN!
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." -- 1 Corinthians 1:18
Christ's sacrifice on the cross for all the sins of His flock has been accepted by God and marked "Paid-in-full."
Our response to this unmerited, free gift of grace is gratitude, gratitude and more gratitude.
Yes
If yes, he created them to go to Hell, now didn't he?
No not at all. You make the fatal, faulty logical leap that just because God knows the future, it is exactly what He desires in every detail. God CHOSE to make man with a free will. That does not make God any less sovereign. It does mean God will not exercise His will in many matters. Making these all or nothing bogus, faulty logic assumptions is why you have such a hard time with this.
You are not following the point. You god made people knowing that they would reject Christ.
Therefore he made them for the express purpose of sending them to Hell.
The God of Scripture saves many who are dead in their trespasses out of love. The rest are rightly judged on their trespasses.
There but for the grace of God go I.
Sorry, that would require a person to have a free will to choose to place their faith in Christ. Since they don't have one (according to both of you), this is impossible. Either they are "preselected" or they are not. If they are, it is just plain nuts to say they then have to "do something" to be "really" preelected.
No, that's a completely and utterly bogus assumption, once again based on faulty logic. D-Day, Ike knew ahead of time that many soldiers would get killed. You, using that faulty thinking, would say "Ike sent men into battle for the express purpose of getting them killed." BZZZ! NOT!
The correct answer is that God created men, knowing some would reject Him, but He still had to allow them to make that choice themselves.
When some of us believed as you do now, we were urged to return to the Bible and read, among others, Romans 8 and 9; Ephesians 1 and 2; Hebrews 10. And nothing has been the same since.
No man can come to the Father unless the Holy Spirit draws him first. And that is at the prerogative of God, not men. As Augustine said, God not only opens the door to all who knock, but He also causes them to knock in the first place.
Most of us reformed Protestants were once Arminians like yourself, which is really just a variation of romanism which says men determine their own salvation by doing good works and making smart choices.
But as Scripture tells us, we are "saved by grace through faith in Christ," and that is a "gift" from God to whom He will, according to mercy and not debt.
Is this understanding a requirement for true salvation? Probably not. But it does make life and faith and trusting in God much richer and more certain because we know that salvation is not in and of ourselves, but in and of and by and for and through Jesus Christ alone.
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Colossians 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Spend some time reading the articles at MONERGISM.COM. Read about the faith of the Reformation and see how far the modern church has strayed from the singular truth of justification by the faith of Christ alone. There's a lot you're missing that is available to all with eyes to see and ears to hear.
But it does make life and faith and trusting in God much richer and more certain because we know that salvation is not in and of ourselves, but in and of and by and for and through Jesus Christ alone.
But once again, this is a fatal logic/thinking flaw, i.e. "A) We can only be saved through Christ alone, AND B) we can not choose that option ourselves". It is correctly A) We can only be saved through Christ alone, AND B) we must choose that option".
Tell me once again how you know how this makes your salvation all the more sure, since as irishtenor said "If I decided to ingest a large amount of cyanide, then I was never one of the "elect" in the first place." Gee, what a great way to go through life, never really knowing whether you are one of the "chosen ones". That does not give any assurance.
Now my theology gives certain assurance. I can know with 100% certainty that since I choose to accept Christ, His grace will save me and keep me.
Do you tell people in your church “Hello, some of you may be among the elect amd some of you may not be. If you are not, well too bad and there is nothing you can do about it. Nothing1 Zip! Zero! Not chosen! Don’t waste our time or darken our door! Sorry...”? And if not, why not?
A clearer, more Scriptural understanding would be...
A) We can only be saved through Christ alone, AND B) will WILL choose that option because it is God's will as determined from before the foundation of the world, for His glory alone.
Otherwise, we would have some room to boast that we made the right decision to believe in Christ.
You haven't given any rebuttal to the many verses from Scripture that I've given you which attest to God's choosing us, and not our choosing Him. That should tell you something.
"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." -- John 15:16
Or do you agree with the Romanists who tell us Jesus was only speaking to His apostles, and not to all believers?
"We love him, because He first loved us." -- 1 John 4:19
And the great comfort in knowing this is that "Even when we were dead in sins, (God) hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)" (Eph. 2:5).
Is there anything greater than that fact? All our works are as "filthy rags" to God; the only work that saves is the work of Christ on the cross. Christ, who justifies the ungodly. His obedience saves us. His faith saves us. His good work saves us. All imputed to us as if they were our own, by our merciful Father in heaven, according to His good pleasure alone.
"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." -- Romans 9:16
Could it be much clearer than that? I hope you spend some time reading up on the faith of the Reformation. It's our Christian/Protestant heritage, and the world conspires to mute it. Resist.
"So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." -- 1 Corinthians 3:7
All men are sinners and sons of our first father, Adam. Some men are redeemed by God's free, unmerited, merciful gift of grace through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for their sins. Therefore we can be reasonably sure of our own salvation because Jesus has promised not to lose any sheep whom the Father has given Him...
"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36.
Our job is to preach the Gospel to all men, to live lives that bring glory to His name, to kneel to none but Christ, to raise children who know whom they have believed, and to be grateful for His many blessings, the greatest of which is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.
Since only God knows who the elect are, and according to your theology, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO if you are not one of the elect, HENCE you can't be sure of anything. I hope you see what a monster size hole there is with this. Take your self for instance. You might not be one of the elect. Oh yea, you're going through the motions, doing all those "wonderful things" that you just stated we are supposed to do, but the bottom line is, YOU DON'T KNOW, AND CAN'T KNOW, according to your theology.
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