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To: Red Steel

It makes me laugh out loud that people like you who know very little about the operations of the US Air Force shhot off there mouths. These are the problems I find with your arguements. By the way I was a Neuclear Weapons Crew Chief on B57s, B47s, F100s F84s for almost 12 years.

1. Trainning Munitions in the USAF are painted Baby Blue in color. The entire item is baby blue not stripes but the whole thing.
2Live weapons are painted a very distinctive Silver color with sensitive areas painted yellow is area to be carefull with. Or years ago they were painted Olive Drab ( B47,B52 years )
3. The author is full of crapola. In that all USAF Munitions are under the total and Direct Control of Munitions Control via radio and via hand signed paperwork
4. In addition ther has been in existence the 2 man policy since 1953. The policy states that at no time will just 1 man be within 15 feet of a neuclear device. They have to be of the same knowledge level IE 2 guards at every aircraft of equal rank and knowledge
5. Too boot at no time is a Neuc weapon allowed to be moved without a security det assigned to the route and accompany the weapon from the Storage Facility to the aircraft and stay with the aircraft until the aircraft is airborne.
6. Tactical Neucs are not allowed to fly with neuc weapons until after War is declared by the POTUS. We kept them loaded in Europe but they could not taxi out or move without a second person on the entrance ladder of the aircraft of equal knowledge wit the Pilot. 10 Years in a certain US Allys country who shall remain un-listed.
7. The Tactical Weapon is live leaving the storage bunker and is always accompanied by a 2 man security det.
8. It is always some know nothing person who wants this changed or that changed and the only reason they want things changed is they do not know the system period.
It used to be common practice for bombers to ferry weapons all over the place and thats what I think really happened is some fool called a newspaper started printing half truths and this poster jumped on the band wagon.
9.Tactical / Strategic Weapons are both identical in that there is a huge tag on the trailer for the weapon stating the status of the weapon. But it is DOD Policy to never ever state whether or not a live weapon is in use. It is a great idea.

Learn before you post.


28 posted on 04/10/2008 8:18:51 AM PDT by straps (Off the coast of Florida is enough oil and natural gas to take care of us. Period)
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To: straps
Then explain to me how they messed up at Minot? Give us a plausible explanation to what happened?

What happened here is that they thought they were moving AGM-129's that had their nuclear warheads removed because the missiles were going to be demil'd for retirement.

By the way I was a Neuclear Weapons Crew Chief on B57s, B47s, F100s F84s for almost 12 years.

A 462 load-toad or an aircraft crew?

1. Trainning Munitions in the USAF are painted Baby Blue in color. The entire item is baby blue not stripes but the whole thing.

Not totally true. BDU-38's are painted white, and the B-57's I'd seen where of a similar color. B-61 trainers or mock-ups look exactly like the real thing silver metallic finish.

2Live weapons are painted a very distinctive Silver color with sensitive areas painted yellow is area to be carefull with. Or years ago they were painted Olive Drab ( B47,B52 years )

The color yellow indicates the presence of high explosives. The change in color from olive drab probably was because conventional general purpose bombs (Mk-82s ect.) are painted in olive-drab. Although, low-observable ALCM's are painted in subdued colors like olive-drab, if not olive-drab.

3. The author is full of crapola. In that all USAF Munitions are under the total and Direct Control of Munitions Control via radio and via hand signed paperwork

I've been a Munitions Controller who has worked in Munitions Control. Their information is only as good as the information they receive. If they get crap info from guys, working in the field, then their info is not worth spit.

4. In addition ther has been in existence the 2 man policy since 1953. The policy states that at no time will just 1 man be within 15 feet of a neuclear device. They have to be of the same knowledge level IE 2 guards at every aircraft of equal rank and knowledge

Yes, I'm sure that the no-lone zone was being observed here if they were in the presence of nukes. However, the case being here, is that the munitions trailer they thought they hooked up to was loaded with AGM-129s that had their nuclear warhead removed.

It's very possible that the 463's mixed-in trailerized AGM-129's with intacted nuclear warheads with the ones that had their nuclear W/Hs removed and stored them inside the same storage facility. Obviously, the security is not the same with conventional weapons as with nukes or AGMs that have no nuke W/H. This incident was unexpected. Everyone thought they were towing AGMs without nuke W/H, and especially when they cleared the Weapons Storage Area (WSA) without security escort and all the circus that it entails. And without the announcement of a "special movement." Of course everyone assumed that they were not hauling any nukes.

5. Too boot at no time is a Neuc weapon allowed to be moved without a security det assigned to the route and accompany the weapon from the Storage Facility to the aircraft and stay with the aircraft until the aircraft is airborne.

See answer above to your # 4.

6. Tactical Neucs are not allowed to fly with neuc weapons until after War is declared by the POTUS. We kept them loaded in Europe but they could not taxi out or move without a second person on the entrance ladder of the aircraft of equal knowledge wit the Pilot. 10 Years in a certain US Allys country who shall remain un-listed.

And do an elephant walk later... without the nuke...of course.

8. It is always some know nothing person who wants this changed or that changed and the only reason they want things changed is they do not know the system period.

Usually for expediency.

It used to be common practice for bombers to ferry weapons all over the place and thats what I think really happened is some fool called a newspaper started printing half truths and this poster jumped on the band wagon.

Sir, I gave a plausible explanation to what might of happened. Many believe that this whole thing is a ruse so to send a message to potential enemies.

It used to be common practice for bombers to ferry weapons all over the place and thats what I think really happened is some fool called a newspaper started printing half truths and this poster jumped on the band wagon.

As I recall, the leak came from the Pentagon.

9.Tactical / Strategic Weapons are both identical in that there is a huge tag on the trailer for the weapon stating the status of the weapon.

I don't recall this practice. We worked in different eras.

9. ...But it is DOD Policy to never ever state whether or not a live weapon is in use. It is a great idea.

Especially if they are stored in another country. They do not want to see them protesters at the gates!

Learn before you post.

The post reflects my experiences from the munitions career field.

29 posted on 04/10/2008 11:40:45 AM PDT by Red Steel
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To: straps
By the way I was a Neuclear Weapons Crew Chief on B57s, B47s, F100s F84s for almost 12 years.

Hmmm...

31 posted on 04/10/2008 1:12:54 PM PDT by dragnet2
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To: straps
 1. Training Munitions in the USAF are painted Baby Blue in color. The entire item is baby blue not stripes but the whole thing.

In the six years I was a 463 (nuke weapons specialist), all training munitions looks exactly like the real deal.  The only visible difference...  the trainers were a little beat up.  All 463's sooner or later do a Slim Pickens on a B-28.  I trained on every nuke weapon in the USAF arsenal from the A2A Genie (mk25) through the Mk-69 SRAM and NONE were painted to look other than the real weapon.

2Live weapons are painted a very distinctive Silver color with sensitive areas painted yellow is area to be careful with. Or years ago they were painted Olive Drab ( B47,B52 years )
The only time one of these weapons isn't live is when we were doing maintenance on them. Swapping neutron generators, tritium bottles etc.  Why the hell would we take the time to paint them another color for a 4 hour maintenance recycle?

3. The author is full of crapola. In that all USAF Munitions are under the total and Direct Control of Munitions Control via radio and via hand signed paperwork
At Malmstrom, Munitions Control was right next to our break room and all of our controllers were smokers.  You can guess where they spent their day. Besides, MMT might be as far as 250 miles away, so 'direct control' is a bit specious.

4. In addition ther has been in existence the 2 man policy since 1953. The policy states that at no time will just 1 man be within 15 feet of a neuclear device. They have to be of the same knowledge level IE 2 guards at every aircraft of equal rank and knowledge:  5. Too boot at no time is a Neuc weapon allowed to be moved without a security det assigned to the route and accompany the weapon from the Storage Facility to the aircraft and stay with the aircraft until the aircraft is airborne.  7. The Tactical Weapon is live leaving the storage bunker and is always accompanied by a 2 man security det.

All three of these statements are true, however, it has nothing to do with what happened at Minot.  The no-lone-zone  and security detail would have been set up regardless, even if they were getting conventional weapons.  My reading was that Minot stored nukes with conventional (not in my day, but I keep reading this) and just because you're supposed to be hooking up conventional, both would have been required simply because they were to be in the immediate vicinity of nuclear weapons.

On a related point, you simply don't store nuclear weapons with conventional weapons.  We had 'paint lockers' to store any kind of explosive/flammable solvent 100' from any facility that had the potential of storing a nuke.  So I'm not entirely sure of the claims that nukes were stored with non-nukes.

6. Tactical Neucs are not allowed to fly with neuc weapons until after War is declared by the POTUS. We kept them loaded in Europe but they could not taxi out or move without a second person on the entrance ladder of the aircraft of equal knowledge wit the Pilot. 10 Years in a certain US Allys country who shall remain un-listed.
I'm not sure why this matters. If the pilots thought they were about to take off with a pylon full of nukes, this story wouldn't have happened to begin with.

8. It is always some know nothing person who wants this changed or that changed and the only reason they want things changed is they do not know the system period.
It used to be common practice for bombers to ferry weapons all over the place and thats what I think really happened is some fool called a newspaper started printing half truths and this poster jumped on the band wagon.

We still ferry nuclear weapons by aircraft.  We just don't put them in clip-ins, nor do we use bombers. It's by far the safest method of transportation

9.Tactical / Strategic Weapons are both identical in that there is a huge tag on the trailer for the weapon stating the status of the weapon. But it is DOD Policy to never ever state whether or not a live weapon is in use. It is a great idea.

True, but you're forgetting that a mistake was made.  That tag might not have said a W-80 was mounted.

Something else bothers me about your post.  You are with out a doubt the only person I have read in the nearly 40 years since I became associated with nuclear weapons that consistently misspells NUCLEAR, and uses NEUC instead of NUKE.  I still appear occasionally at yearly meetings of Nuclear Weapons Specialists and called a couple of them a bit ago and asked them if they ever saw anyone over seas in England or Germany or Turkey or S. Korea or even Tule Greenland spell it that way and they couldn't remember a single instance either.

I also want to add that I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.  But my experience was quite a bit different than yours.

I have also read a good piece written by a Chief 2W2 (463 in my day) that apparently knows the people in the shop involved.  I do not know him personally as he enlisted after I was discharged, but I know people that do know him and vouch for him.  I'll find it later and post it. Assuming I can find it.

 

 

32 posted on 04/10/2008 1:30:58 PM PDT by HawaiianGecko
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To: straps
Wow - thank you for your detailed response!

Saw elsewhere a conspiracy "theory" that China had compromised the weapons control system and issued false orders to load live weapons...(e.g.http://projectcamelot.org/jack_carter.html)

35 posted on 04/10/2008 6:18:01 PM PDT by bt_dooftlook (Democrats - the "No Child/Left/Behind" Party)
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