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To: P-Marlowe; metmom; MHGinTN
FWIW the "marriage" between Abraham and Hagar was rather similar to the various plural marriages in the LDS Church. While the Marriage to Sarah was recognized as valid, the marriage to Hagar has not been widely accepted as valid. The fact of the matter is that there were no legal marriage rules at the time. I would venture to say that if you were living with a woman and had a child with her, then you were married to her. [p-marlowe]

I appreciate your feedback, P, but I think you’re operating with 2 strikes against you: First, you’re allowing more contemporary cultural examples to cloud your off-the-cuff assessment—and that’s exactly what it is—off-the cuff (you say, “I would venture to say…” ). If we have a specific pattern of Scriptural insight, why do we need to “venture” out upon contemporary living arrangements (your example of common-law marriages) as the basis of our understanding?

Secondly, perhaps your own LDS background colors your view. (Many ex-LDS have polygamists in their family tree, and of course we think the best of them & color our vantage point accordingly).

As for the specific pattern of Scriptural insight, we have two leads:

(1) What distinctions, if any, does the broader Old Testament make between “marriage” and ”concubinage”?

(2) What distinctions, if any, were present during with Abraham's family? (Genesis 11 thru Gen. 30).

Broader Old Testament distinctions

Example 1: Solomon 700 wives & 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). If this was simply some “worthless distinction,” why didn’t the writer simply use the nice round number of 1,000 wives? (He didn’t; there must have been a reason).

Example 2: Saul Wife Ahinoam (1 Sam. 14:50); Rizpah concubine (2 Sam. 3:7). Why the distinction?

Example 3: Manasseh He had (at least) two women in his life; Aramitess is clearly identified as a “concubine” (1 Chron. 7:14). Why?

Example 4: Caleb Caleb His first “wife”Azubah died (1 Chron 2:18-19). He took a second wife—Ephrata (1 Chron. 2:18-19). Ephah & Maachah were clearly id’d as Caleb’s ”concubines” (1 Chron. 2:46, 48). Why?

Example 5: David Based upon 2 Sam. 12:8, David’s the only Biblical support for a “mix and match” understanding of concubinage = marriage. These same women are id’d as “concubines” in 2 Sam. 16:21-22. But the word used for these women in 2 Sam. 12 is issah, which can simply mean “woman” as well as wife. The book of Judges uses “issah” once for “concubine”. And if Bathsheba was simply an “add-on” to David’s harem (we’re not sure when his wife Michal died), why is Bathsheba id’d as his ”wife” (2 Sam. 11:27)? Why didn’t Scripture simply identify her as yet another “concubine”?

Abraham's Family (Gen. 11-30)

I think the strongest arguments against “concubine” being used interchangeably with “wife” comes from Abraham himself & his family--namely his brother and his grandson.

Example 6: Abraham’s brother, Nahor Nahor’s wife was Milcah (Gen. 11:29), who bore him 8. Reumah is clearly id’d as a “concubine” who bore him 4 children (Gen. 22:20-24). If Nahor simply had two wives, why bother making this distinction?

You say: The fact of the matter is that there were no legal marriage rules at the time.

Saying there “were no legal marriage rules” assumes two things…(a) that God did not leave a traditional custom passed down through Adam and Eve…and (b) that marriage is at it’s foundation a “legal” entity (your use of the words, “legal” and “rules”).

P, marriage is ultimately a “God thing”—not a “legal thing.” It’s tied to creation, not to social legal theory: “For this reason [the creation account of Eve in Gen. 2:21-23] a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.” (Gen. 2:24-25)

P, ya wanna explain why “father and mother” are mentioned in Gen. 2:24 when Adam & Eve had no mother? (The belly button issue). Obviously Gen. 2:24 is God’s policy for mankind beyond just Adam & Eve, and it says “wife”—not “wives.”

You say: While the Marriage to Sarah was recognized as valid, the marriage to Hagar has not been widely accepted as valid.

But why was his marriage to Sarah “recognized” as “valid?” Could it perhaps, just perhaps be because Scripture says they were actually “married?”

Example 7: Abraham himself P, even though you mention Abram’s marriage, you imply that his household arrangements were categorized based upon social recognition. It’s almost like you imply Abram and Sarai were simply “shacking up” as common-law husband & wife. But what does Scripture say? “Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milcah…” (Gen. 11:29) [So much for a theory of a free-wheeling, open-ended early concept of living arrangements]

I’ve already put up a couple of posts that clearly shows that Hagar was never referenced as anything other than a “servant girl” and mother. [Abraham outlived Sarah, 175-127…therefore he took another wife, Ketura after her death (Gen. 25:1).]

Example 8: Abraham’s grandson, Jacob Jacob never chose to be married to two wives. It was deception that brought Leah into the picture. (And God is NOT a deceiver). If “concubine” was simply a term for an “add-on wife,” then why is Rachel id’d as a “wife?”

It wasn’t Jacob’s idea, either to sleep with his wives’ servant girls. (That was their idea). Those girls are never id’d as anything other than that: note, for example, that Leah was given a "bridal week" even after the deception in Gen. 29. So the question would be for Rachel's maidservant: If “shacking up” is the same as “marriage,” where was her "bridal week" between Gen. 30:3 (Rachel's idea) and Gen. 30:4 (sexual liaison carried out with maidservant)? No mention, there, of a new "bridal week" or "bridal day"...no assumption, therefore, that this was "polygamy" in terms of additional "wives." (In fact, it doesn’t even sound like Jacob regularly slept with these servant girls…and why would he? He had two wives).

1,672 posted on 04/09/2008 10:07:11 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser; MHGinTN
Abraham, Moses, Jacob, virtually all the hallowed names in the OT were polygamous... [DU]

I guess once you start repeating this lie long enough, you can't help but keep it as part of your Mormon heritage package, eh, DU?

First of all the timetables of Moses' 2 wives (of when they lived & died) is not id'd in Scripture...so your accusation of polygamy is based upon assumption. Secondly, Abraham is never identified in the Bible as being in an ongoing intimate relationship with Hagar...and in fact, Hagar in the Bible is never id'd as a wife or anything other than a servant girl. (But we understand, DU, that D&C 132 colors your viewpoint of the Bible...and that D&C 132 was written by a cohort of Smith's so that he could take it in to Emma to convince her of Smith adding on to his harem).

As for Jacob, he never iniatiated a double-wife family. It was deception that brought Leah into the picture. (And God is NOT a deceiver nor the author of deception). But now we know, DU, that you accuse God of being the author of deception. Repent, for it is blasphemy to accuse God of being such an author!

(Oh, and BTW, virtually all of the hallowed names of the OT were NOT polygamous...another lie of yours! Adam? Noah? Abraham? (sleeping with a slave girl once or a few times does not = polygamy) Moses? Aaron? Joshua? Samuel? Nehemiah? Ezra? Isaac? How about most of the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel? Isaiah? Jeremiah? Daniel? Are you that misread of the Old Testament that you can't even describe their family relationships correctly? Are you simply mistating these things because you are mistaken, or are you attempting to deceive others?)

and now you want to tell me it's not biblical, well, show me a scripture that condemns Polygamy...

I already quoted it to you in an earlier post on this thread: Deut. 17:17: He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. Sure enough, what happened in Solomon's life despite this direct warning? ...his sives led him astray...his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God..." (1 Kings 11:3-4)[Even the Book of Mormon...Jacob 2:24,27...condemns polygamy, yet you continually defend it!!!]

1,679 posted on 04/09/2008 10:30:27 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian; metmom; MHGinTN
Sorry Colo, I looked it up. Sarah gave Hagar to Abram to be his WIFE!

And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes. (Genesis 16:3-4 KJV)

The Hebrew word for "WIFE" in that verse is the same word used in the following verses:

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. (Genesis 2:23-25 KJV)

Therefore it is clear that Abram took Hagar to be his WIFE, in the same manner that Adam took Eve to be his wife. That would make Abram a polygamist.

1,820 posted on 04/09/2008 5:48:33 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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