Just to clarify, these people are not part of the modern LDS. They are a radical splinter group and a closely insulated cult lead by Warren Jeffs that believes that it’s God’s will to force 14 or 15 year old girls into incestuous “marriages” with their uncles or first cousins (or even worse).
Yes, Warren Jeffs is a wack-job pervert, as was his father before him, but he's not a Baptist. Do you think that there might be something in the teachings or in the tradition (or in both) of Mormonism that lends some support to such an abusive way of life?
Just to clarify, these nutjobs are living polygamy as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young instructed.
Lets not whitewash this.
The Mohhamedans would approve!
thanks for the informative clarification. Let’s be fair to all LDS people and respect their religion. This bizzarre cult is a big reason that Rommney is not electable. It makes Americans queasy,not saying that is fair..but it is reality.
So they are aware that the FLDS is not a break away nor excommunicated and is not in any way related to or by any means to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, this FLDS, is a rogue organization, is a Fake LDS!
I pray reasonable minds will remember just like our struggle in our Conservative Efforts that the media many times ignores our side or maligns us, and they apply the same brush the the LDS!
Sad but true there are freepers who know better but take delight in posting this confusion.
Interesting that you point that out. In my brief time as a Mormon, I heard that reasoning used regularly to defend the formerly practice teaching of polygamy. While the church disavowed the practice, it was still somewhat defended as "biblical".
Of course, to use the Old Testament as a defense of the practice completely ignores the New Testament and Christ's own definition of adultery, as well as the qualifications of those over the church found in Ephesians.
“Just to clarify, these people are not part of the modern “
Yeah, sure. They are closer to Joseph Smith than the modern LDS and that’s what throws you into a tizzy.
Maybe you should study a little more.
I would also point out that polygamy was practiced and condoned in the Old Testament – King David and King Solomon both had many wives and “concubines”.
While I agree with much of the rest of your post, that statement is ridiculous. - We need to stay within, say, 2,000 years when using examples...
Sure they are.
They have the same texts and the same name.
It's a freakin' cult.
Good clarification. I think the official LDS church should sue them for trademark infringement. Not kidding.
The historical fact of these practices is recorded in the Old Testament, as is the fact that stoning to death adulterous women was condoned by the leaders of Jewish society of that time. However, I am not prepared therefore to conclude that God approved, although admittedly the prophets claiming to be his messengers did not condemn these customs.
My response: Don't confuse the Old Testament's historical description of polygamy with God's approval. Deuteronomy 17:16 specifically warns kings against taking too many wives or horses. Although the Old Testaments is full of examples of polygamy, it consistently shows how the practice results in disaster.
The Lord specifically told Abraham that his blessing would go to Isaac, his wife's child, rather than to Ishmael, the son of Abraham's concubine. Because of polygamy, Jacob's children became so jealous of Joseph, the son of the favored wife, that they sold him into slavery. The biggest blot on David's record was his weakness for multiple women, leading him to kill another man to take Bathsheba into his harem. David's children through multiple wives were at each other's throats, literally. David's one son raped his half sister, Tamar, and as a result, her brother Absalom killed the rapist. David banished Absalom for a time, which may well have led to Absalom’s revolt against his father, leading to Absalom’s death. David's son Solomon, Bathsheba's son, became king after David's death, but his polygamy, (1000 wives and concubines) is cited for his turning to idolatry, which eventually tore the kingdom in two.
Please don't try to be deceitful about the LDS church history with polygamy. It's a history that most of the world is getting very tired of being distorted by some LDS people who frankly haven't studied up on it. I'll make a few points: (1) Polygamy is still LDS doctrine and has never been removed from the Doctrine and Covenants. See http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132/37#37 for details. (2) There was plenty of approved incestual-type relationships and old men marrying young girls in LDS church polygamy. My great-great-great grandfather was a Bishop and high public official in his 40s when he married a 15-year-old. Another great-great-great grandfather of mine was a leader in the Willy and Martin Handcart company who later married his stepdaughters when they were 17 and 15 after he raised them for 10 years with his 2nd wife, their mother. Several of the General Authorities married young teenagers when they were in their 50s, 60s, 70s, etc; (3) The church has a history of being deceitful on their practicing of polygamy .... look at all the approved polygamous marriages AFTER 1890 including for Henry B. Eyring's paternal grandparents; and look at the Section in the Doctrine and Covenants that forbade polygamy and was used by missionaries in Europe to disavow polygamy while it was being actively practiced in Nauvoo and then Utah. How can we be sure that the LDS leadership is being honest with the world today? When have they really repented and come clean on their polygamy history? We have polygamy today in America primarily because of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. That's a fact that can't be erased or glossed over.
Full disclosure: I'm a LDS High Priest myself as I've served in a Bishopric, graduated from BYU in Provo, Utah and I'm a RM. But I've never practiced polygamy though I have many relatives who have and who were stalwart members of the LDS church their entire lives, especially because they obeyed the commandments of their LDS leaders to enter into plural marriage.
Warren Jeffs is the True and Righteous and Worthy heir of the Prophethood of Joseph Smith, peace be upon him and Brigham Young, peace be upon him. All who refuse the Teaching of Father Warren Jeffs will face the fires of eternal ........ whatever ,,,,,,,,
<\sarc>
You may consider rethinking that assertion....Jos Smith was married to 14 yr old Helen Mar Kimball, in a "Celestial" Marriage.....
Please clarify for us, are celestial marriages consumated or not?
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Helen wrote:
"Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he (my father) offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the altar: how cruel this seemed to my mother whose heartstrings were already stretched until they were ready to snap asunder, for she had already taken Sarah Noon to wife and she thought she had made sufficient sacrifice but the Lord required more."- Helen Mar Whitney Journal, Helen Mar Autobiography, Womans Exponent, 1880 and recently reprinted in A Woman's view
In fact, Joseph Smith gave young Helen only 24 hours to decide on whether or not to marry him. Of this, Helen wrote:
"[my father] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty four hours. ... I was sceptical - one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast me off, and this was the only convincing proof That I had of its being right."
The next morning, Joseph Smith finally appeared himself to explain the "law of Celestial Marriage" and claim his teen bride. In her memoir, Helen wrote, "After which he said to me, 'if you take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred.' This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward."Helen also writes about her mother's reaction to all of this:
"None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart - when Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied 'If Helen is willing I have nothing more to say."
"She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older and who better understood the step they were taking, and to see her child, who had yet seen her fifteenth summer, following the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come as the sun was to rise and set; but it was hidden from me."
Helen thought her marriage to Joseph Smith was only dynastic. But to her surprise, it was more. Helen confided to a close friend in Nauvoo: "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."
"Mormon Polygamy: A History" by LDS member Richard S. Van Wagoner, p. 53.
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The question begs - where does Smith find a Biblical basis for declaring she can ensure the salvation of her family by consenting, and what type of person would suggest such a thing?