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To: MarDav
"And, so, if you continue to look to continue the office of Apostle by continuing a line of Peters, you are not founding your practice on sound exegesis. Even if you were to do this, why wouldn’t you (if you are a gentile) follow the “established” Pauline Apostleship? He himself declares in Romans, “For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office...” and also, “Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.” As the apostle to the gentiles (a title Peter never claimed—and for which never corrected Paul, nor withstood him to his face), it would appear he has the weightier claim on gentile devotion and obedience.

Unfortunately for your position, none of the Apostles ministered strictly to the Jews. ALL of them ministered to whomever asked. I doubt that Thomas found much of a Jewish community in India, for instance. Indeed, Peter made a mistake---so what---Paul made a few too. But if you recall, it was Peter, and NOT Paul, who accepted the first Gentile converts--so what Paul was upbriding Peter for (and rightly) was being inconsistent. But again, so what---the Church doesn't claim impeccability for its leadership.

But, as usual, you completely mis-understand Catholic doctrine (as 99.99% of Protestants do). Like it or not, Christ established a hierarchical church, with Peter in charge, and priests and deacons as teachers. This is what the Bible itself teaches throughout the New Testament, and this is what history shows was universally believed for a millennium and a half, until Luther started teaching apostasy.

So I'll stick to the original Church, as Christ founded it, and which has been in continuous and active existence for two millennia. (Footnote: I didn't start out there, as I joined the RC church only recently--but I did so after LONG and arduous study of Catholic doctrine. As a result of that study, I found that the Protestant doctrines were simply and grossly wrong, in the face of Biblical, historical, and logical evidence).

72 posted on 04/05/2008 6:49:04 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog

You said,
“the Church doesn’t claim impeccability for its leadership.”

Yes it does. Christ is the head of the Church. Therefore, it does claim impeccability (but not if you are looking to men.)

And, again you said,
“Like it or not, Christ established a hierarchical church, with Peter in charge, and priests and deacons as teachers. This is what the Bible itself teaches throughout the New Testament...”

Where exactly does the Bible teach about the authority of Peter? Were the churches Paul wrote to directed to seek out Peter’s counsel or God’s in resolving local matters? Paul told these local assemblies to appoint elders (spiritually mature, discerning believers) to act in oversight capacity. But all were to take their direction from scripture and the Holy Spirit (who was to guide them into all truth.) In Acts 20 we read:

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

They were not sending to Peter every time a controversy arose (in fact, Paul had more interaction with the assemblies in Asia Minor and Greece. If anyone was offering spiritual insights and docrinal distinctions to these fellowships it was Paul, and not Peter.)

Again you said
“But, as usual, you completely mis-understand Catholic doctrine”

That’s okay by me. I’m not interested in the docrtines of men—nor should anyone who claims Christ as Savior and Lord. Salvation is found in a person—Christ. The Church is His instrument on earth for the dissemination of the Gospel, for the edification of the saints, for the work of Christ (helping the poor, for example). The Church is precious to Christ and important to His work. Ultimately, though, the Head of the Church is what is most important. There are plenty of “whited sepulchres” around, dead places where there is no Living Head. The Book of Revelation warns us about the nature and practice of the Church in the end times and Christ hates these practices (the Nicolaitans, for instance). The answer to the problems of this world, to your problems and mine is not the Church, but the Christ. In reading through your postings you tend to promulgate an institution. I am trying to promulgate a Person.

Finally, you said,
“So I’ll stick to the original Church, as Christ founded it...”

To that I say, “Amen,” And to bring the conversation full circle, I rest on the Solid Rock, the true Rock, that Rock is Christ “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.”

May He continue to direct you as you seek to know Him and His purposes for your life.


73 posted on 04/05/2008 8:11:57 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: Wonder Warthog
No, the Orthodox Church (as found in the Middle East for 2,000 years by the way) is the original Christianity, and we are mystified about the odd emphasis on St. Peter, as though that proved anything.

St. Peter was in Antioch, Syria (i.e., what has historically been an Orthodox area before the Muslims invaded) for 9 (nine) years before going to Rome for 2 (two) years, ending in his martyrdom. So if any Christian body in the world could lay claim to being The.True.Church.Because.of.St.Peter, it would be the Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.

78 posted on 04/11/2008 5:35:33 PM PDT by wildandcrazyrussian
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