Posted on 03/25/2008 11:15:40 AM PDT by Borges
John List, the devout Lutheran who killed his family, left the bodies in his New Jersey home and spent 18 years as a fugitive, has died at 82.
The state Department of Corrections said that List died Friday in a Trenton hospital. He had been an inmate at Trenton State Prison since he was given five consecutive life sentences in 1990.
List, an accountant and one-time Sunday school teacher, lived in Denver for years after shooting his wife, mother and three teenage children, returning to his previous occupation under an alias and marrying a woman he met at a church picnic. By the time of his arrest, after "America's Most Wanted" aired a segment on the crime, he was living in Richmond, Va., with his second wife.
In a five-page letter left for his pastor, List said he wanted to keep his family close to God. He also covered his tracks, telling his children's schools the family was going to be out of town. The bodies, laid out in the Victorian mansion he owned in Westfield, were not found for a month.
No I don’t get it, that is why I ask.
Also I would know the future if my kid put his hand on a hot stove, a lot of pain. So why don't I just get rid of the stove? Hard to cook if I did that. Just like human nature, has it's dangers but is beneficial if used properly even if you “foresee” the problems arising.
We love what we created one way by instructing them to avoid pain and suffering. Also we don't allow ourselves to act on permissive love because we would raise a bunch of spoiled rotten kids not knowing how to love others. Spiritual beings were created in the first place to express love. How would you express love if you are a robot without excuse?
Also God is immune to cause and effect. He created time for His spiritual beings to go through cause and effect to see who would be worthy after a righteous judgment. Are you possessed by god? A robot? Feel no guilt? Have no conscience? Immune to anger? Perfect?
Humans are here in the now capable of killing or not killing, hating or not hating, loving or not loving. Just because God saw our actions outside the realm of cause and effect does not mean He is a total puppet master. God is God, god is not in man's logic or boxed up by humans looking for excuses for our actions.
Don't agree with free will? Why is there evil? A permissive god would not only make us perfect but suspend the laws of physics to accommodate us in life on earth. Also why create the law of entropy in the first place? Your god has a strange sense of humor.
My God has lit the spark, observed our choices we make, gave us the gift of life, offered salvation to everyone (What prevents you from accepting Jesus? Questions arising from mortal logic that will never be answered? Your own god? Pride?), instructed, cut the strings, accepted the chaos that evil brings, conquered evil and will judge all fairly and squarely. Not that hard to grasp but we humans will keep ignoring our responsibilities and continuing to create god in our own image and comfort.
I don’t believe humans create their children the same way that God creates humans. Ours is a biological process, He made the process. Besides, you did not know beforehand if you were going to create a male or female, who they would marry, and what their great-great grandchildren would do at age 44, did you?
I think God created time, because we could not exist outside of it in human form. It comes with being something other than God.
I do not believe that He observes our choices as we make them, because He already knows what they will be. How could we possibly do something other than what God knows we will do? By creating us, knowing what we will do before the choice even arises, to me, negates the concept of free will.
I believe the concepts of bad and good are purely human in nature. God creates us as He does, we are the ones that determine whether something is good or evil, not Him.
I also agree that God is not in our logic...which makes these kinds of conversations moot anyway.
That is one of the reasons the creature is created with free will. Who said anything about what God needs? Not me. God doesn't need anything but he does will certain things.
What good has come from this guy that killed his family? Or satan for that matter?
I am not God so I couldn't tell you. Somethings are beyond our rational mind. This is a concept that many people have problems with so I wouldn't get so hung up on it. The human mind which is finite cannot grasp the infinite mind of God. With God's will, there are so many good things I don't understand fully so for me to not understand bad things fully doesn't trouble me.
Who said he didn't.
Because he loves us.
God did not create evil people. Are you telling me that people are born evil?
So why do you keep bringing this conversation up thread after thread?
When you asked why would God create a creature that was forced to love Him, I took it as sounding like God wants or needs us to love Him. If God wills something, isn’t that the same as force? God being all powerful and such.
Why is it, that we try to explain the good things, like God’s love, but when it comes to the bad things, it’s a mystery?
Mostly all the people that believe we need salvation and that mankind is inherently evil and full of sin.
I agree that God did not create evil people...or good people. I believe that we humans made up the concept of good and evil.
I guess it’s the way God made me.
I do not believe that He observes our choices as we make them, because He already knows what they will be.
You cannot believe both of these things as these two statements contradict themselves. If God is outside time then He sees past, present and future at the same time. So He would be able observe our choices and see the results at the same time. Our Free Will is not impacted by this.
How are they contradictory? I don’t believe God observes ua at all, why would He?
Please explain how we can make a free will choice other than the one God knows we will make?
Good riddance.
So did I when instigated foreplay with my wife knowing I would probably get her pregnant (1, 2, 3 like clockwork)
“Besides, you did not know beforehand if you were going to create a male or female, who they would marry, and what their great-great grandchildren would do at age 44, did you?”
Mute point and even if I did know before hand the control was all theirs in the first place (Except the male/female part, the chromosome thing happen naturally not the others, those resulted in their own choices)
“I do not believe that He observes our choices as we make them, because He already knows what they will be.”
Prove that god is controlling you on your strings. Make a choice about something and tell me when exactly god compelled or forced you. You can easily tell if something or someone is forcing an action. Watch a movie you seen before, can you control the action after already seeing it? Could you control the action even after seeing it the first time.
“we are the ones that determine whether something is good or evil, not Him.”
How can we do this, we have no free will to determine this according to you. In your world there is neither good or evil so why have laws that confine us? Let anarchy and chaos reign. god created a universe but became an landlord full of neglect.
“I also agree that God is not in our logic...which makes these kinds of conversations moot anyway.”
God has revealed His nature for the last 6,000 years or so in human history. Gave us a conscience to try and guide us and offered Himself as salvation to those who CHOOSE to grab it. What is stopping you? Questions you keep asking yourself in order to evade “a leap of faith” or prop up your world view that everyone has an excuse in the end.
You designed procreation?
Why is it a moot point? What about all of God’s other creations, that interact with the 44yo. in ordder for things to happen as they do. Things happen for a purpose.
I have no way of proving anything God does or even to comprehend the mechanism He uses.
I do not believe we are compelled or forced to make any specific choices...these things are just part of who we are and how God designed us in order to fulfill His plan. Included in His plan is a method to enable us to make laws and form societies, this requires a concept of good and evil. As you know, this concept of good and evil is constantly changing, dependent upon the time and place in history.
I do not believe everyone has an excuse in the end, I believe we just do as God has us do. Some people are what we call good, some evil and some in between. It’s just the way it is. Ultimately, we are all created equal in the eyes of God, we just have different tasks in His plan. If God has planned for me to make what you call a ‘leap of faith’, then that is what will happen.
For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."
Yes, I would say the same.
I choose to participate in the natural process of procreation. A sperm from my body fertilized the egg of my wife. Without that action/choice God would not have another spiritual being to “interact” with. I don't see strings on me and no one forced me to have sex with my wife at that particular moment. Hence I designed my offspring with a sperm from my body which was provided by my biological mother/dad and so on-so-on...
“What about all of God’s other creations, that interact with the 44yo. in ordder for things to happen as they do. Things happen for a purpose.”
Guess what, other people decided to have sex to. God came to the conclusion that if sex feels good people might do it often and reproduce. Of course with this “good feeling” comes responsibility. God revealed a blueprint called the Torah/Bible backed up by guilt/conscience (That can erode over time if ignored) which determined monogamy between a male and female (Not sister-brother/dad-daughter/mom-son) was beneficial towards society. Of course if humans CHOOSE to abuse that well...
“these things are just part of who we are and how God designed us in order to fulfill His plan.”
His plan? What is it? Get jobs, get paid, keep the economy going, procreate, keep history going and then what, die? Why not just skip the suffering and stuff and go straight to the party. After all your god can create at will so why have humans do it then suffer.
“As you know, this concept of good and evil is constantly changing, dependent upon the time and place in history.”
Bull, morality does not evolve over time. Nothing is new under the sun. Human nature is easy to predict and misuse of it happens all throughout history with the same results. The tech will progress, as well as knowledge but not our nature will always remain the same.
“Ultimately, we are all created equal in the eyes of God, we just have different tasks in His plan.”
Again what is this plan? I agree, God has a plan for salvation but in order to be saved one must make a choice to do so. God persuades but definitely does not force or compel people to act in this way.
“If God has planned for me to make what you call a ‘leap of faith’, then that is what will happen.”
Exactly how does god micromanage your life? Can you see your strings?
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