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To: the scotsman
It means the history of the Scottish people moved abroad as the English stranglehold progressed.

BTW, you can get a feel for the 1700-1702 problem by digging into the ever so popular genealogy records of UK prison barges sent to the American colonies.

Hard to find anyone but the Mac's and Mc's in there!

52 posted on 03/22/2008 2:08:38 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Firstly, if you know Scots history, Scots have ALWAYS emigrated. LONG BEFORE even the time of Empire...

In medieval times, Scots traders and mercenaries emigrated to mainland Europe, both Cath & Prot,and to Ireland where they fought against the English, and became famous as the ‘Gallowglasses’ (or ‘redlegs’ in Irish Gaelic). The Scots have always been an emigrant people, due to the size of Scotland and their hard working, go getting ethos.

Secondly, I guess my question is why you see everything through a prism of ‘English stranglehold’ or ‘English oppression’. That frankly is the worst kind of Braveheartish view on Scottish history of the latter 17th and 18th centuries.

As I have pointed out, Scotland was never and has never been a part of England, so any influence, at least until after the Restortation in 1660, from 1603 onwards was limited, as both countries were independent and shared only a monarch (in fact Scotland and England fought two wars as late as 1638 and 1640).

And more importantly, the oppression of religious minorities and Highland clans in the 1670’s to early 1700’s, cannot be blamed on the English, as these were dark moments in Scottish history committed by Scotsmen. Undoubtedly condoned by the monarch in London (even then, the monarch lets not forget was a Stuart) and supported by English elites, but very much the work of Scots: Glencoe and the Campbells,the persecution of the Lowland Covenantors...

And if you know anything about Scottish history and that of the British Empire, you will see that to suggest Scotland and the Scots were marginalised in the 1700’s (or any time of the Empire) is nonsense.

In the 1700’s, it was the Scots intellectuals of Edinburgh and Glasgow who drove Britain and Western Enlightment on....Adam Smith,Frances Hutchison and others.It, not London was THE British city of that century. And Glasgow became ‘the second city of the Empire’, with its huge tobacco trade, which made the city rich, and by the 1800’s second only to London.

And it was Scots soldiers and generals who were winning the Empire, from Canada and America to India and the East. And it was Scots governors and administrators who were running the Empire, from America to India.

There is a proud saying in Scotland, which most English will admit, that ‘the Scots ran the Empire’. A saying with a huge amount of truth.

Thirdly, re prisoners.I am not sure whether you are looking at this only from the American end ie your own area, or UK records as a whole, but either way you are imo incorrect.

If you are merely dealing with your area of America, then you are looking at records for a—one area and b—a short time. Fine, a lot of those from 1700 to 1702 into your area may have been Scots, but all that states is that Scottish authorities were strict (which they were I can tell you) and they deported a lot of Scots.

Again, before 1707, the two nations were independent,but shared a monarch and as such only Scots courts had the authority to deport Scots to the then English American colonies, just as only English had the legal right to deport theirs to America. In 1707, with the union, power of deportation devolved to Westminster, who had jurisdiction over all Britain and Ireland. This the Scots agreed to (for ‘canny’ reasons no doubt: let Westminster foot any bills!...lol).

Remember, after the union of 1707, Scotland retained its legal and education systems and its church.

So any 1700-1702 Scottish deportations were purely Scots legislated and nothing to do with England, except England agreeing to these Scots deportations into ‘their’ colonies.

Other deportations to America in certain areas may show a preponderence of Catholic Irish, Welsh, (Protestant) Ulster Scots or, of course, English. Or a mix of all four.

‘Mc or Mac’, I might point out can easily mean Catholic Irish either in Ireland or living in Scotland or England or Ulster Scots just as much as it could mean Scots (and even then, was it Highland or Lowland or Border Scots, were they Jacobites, religious groups or just criminals?)

You and I know that the British Empire was never slow to send ANY British people to penal colonies and away from Britain, be it America or the most famous of all, Botany Bay...

If you are looking at the UK records as a whole, then I could counterargue that you are extrapolating some records as the whole (again, taking a narrow time and group deported as a whole).


56 posted on 03/22/2008 4:54:06 PM PDT by the scotsman
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