Chaldean archbishop kidnapped in Iraq found dead: church

Yahoo News ^ | March 13, 2008

[Fox_Mulder77]

“Now, which comments have I made that you feel are boneheaded?”

Sorry, you just think like a 15 year old.

[death2tyrants]

“AQ did not create extreme Islam, extreme Islam created AQ.”

These strawmen don’t mean anything to me. You failed to answer my question regarding your statement. You claimed that the Iraqi Sunnis that have allied with the U.S. and turned on al Qaeda haven’t rejected extreme Islam. How are they supporting extreme Islam? How can they support extreme Islam while simultaneously capturing and killing Al Qaeda and denouncing extremism?

[death2tyrants]

“Sorry, you just think like a 15 year old.”

Which statements have I made that would lead you to this conclusion? Be specific.

[Fox_Mulder77]

I’m not into using lots of words. So just try to figure out what I said about extreme Islam creating AQ.
I’ll help you out okay: attacking the symptoms doesn’t mean you’ve killed the disease.

[farmer18th]

You conviently left out the provisions that safeguard the freedoms of the Iraqis.

Fair Enough:
A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
B. No law that contradicts the principles of democracy may be established.
C. No law that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms stipulated in this constitution may be established.

You aren't the least bit uncomfortable about the order of these completely-at-odds resolutions? What happens when "the provisions of Islam" conflict with "the basic freedoms" clause? Naturally, the Imams make Islam take a second seat to "basic freedoms."

Right?
It this war is about getting a big long term base in Iraq, let's just say so, but failing to understand that Islam will never support the repudiation of its holy writ necessary to sustain Democracy is a huge disservice to those fighting the war.

[philetus]

And so many of us remain under the false impression that the age of the Christian martyrs is ancient history.”

There is more persecution of Christians today than all the previous persecution added together.

[death2tyrants]

“I’ll help you out okay: attacking the symptoms doesn’t mean you’ve killed the disease.”

We are killing the desease by spreading freedom. The Iraqis freely choose a moderate government that is allied against the extremists. I still don’t know how one can reject al Qaeda’s vision while simultaneously support extremism. Are you accusing the Sunni Iraqis of supporting other extremist groups and if so, which ones? How do the Iraqi Sunnis, who have rejected al Qaeda and allied with the west, support extremism?

[death2tyrants]

“You aren’t the least bit uncomfortable about the order of these completely-at-odds resolutions?”

No. I reject the notion that the only correct interpretation of Islam is that of Bin Laden’s. So I don’t see contradiction. Also, the government of Iraq is allied against the extremists. The extremists are waging war on the government of Iraq.

” What happens when “the provisions of Islam” conflict with “the basic freedoms” clause? Naturally, the Imams make Islam take a second seat to “basic freedoms.” “

Imams? Are you sure you’re not talking about Iran?

[Fox_Mulder77]

It’s obvious that you think extreme Islam comes in one form: terror groups.
Extreme Islam is much more pervasive than you think. It comes in many forms, which is why we are fighting an uphill battle.

[forkinsocket]

I can tell you about the Jews of Iran. They number about 50-60,000. Since Judaism is recognized as a legitimate religion in Iran, along with Christianity, they have a representative in the assembly & their own schools, community centers & of course synagogues. They are quite prosperous there & I was told by several Persians that the Jews must own half of Iran (exageration, of course). The Jews & Christians (mostly Armenians) are somewhat better off than the Persians in that they are exempt from Muslim laws such as prohibition of alcohol & crackdowns on dancing & parties. Of course they are not happy with the wacko Mullocracy, but no one is.

I’ve spoken to Iranian Jews who came to Israel & so were able to speak freely about their conditions & they reported that they were not abused in Iran. I’ve also spoken with many Persians in Iran who are of the minority who do support Islamic Iran & even they had no ill will toward their Jewish compatriots. So I am confident that the Jews aren’t in any immediate danger.

The minority that is most oppressed in Iran are the Zoroastrians.

[Allegra]

You claimed that the Iraqi Sunnis that have allied with the U.S. and turned on al Qaeda haven’t rejected extreme Islam. How are they supporting extreme Islam? How can they support extreme Islam while simultaneously capturing and killing Al Qaeda and denouncing extremism?

You are absolutely right.

The prime motivation for the Sunni insurgents (mostly former Saddam loyalists) turning on al Qaeda and helping the coalition was the fact that al Qaeda was ramming extremist Islam down their throats. Iraqis, who have a secular majority, rejected this and it dawned on them which side was causing trouble and which side was genuinely there to help them.

Some of the former insurgents have openly said that they don't love Americans, but feel that the Americans have the right objectives and therefore, they joined the good guys.

The contrast in Fallujah, Ramadi, Habbaniyah, etc. today vs. just a year ago says it all.

[forkinsocket]

Oh & about the Copts. They are not treated well in Egypt & are indeed abused & in danger. Extremism is growing in Egypt rapidly & every time I visit, I can see the change. The most overt religiosity I've seen in a Muslim country was in Egypt. Yes, more than in Saudi Arabia.

[Allegra]

There is more persecution of Christians today than all the previous persecution added together.

Exactly. It's going on in our own nation.

The ACLU is just one of many examples. The Ten Commandments are being removed from courtrooms, children now have "Winter Break" instead of "Christmas vacation," the 9th Circuit Court has fought for years to get the phrase "under God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance...

We Christians are probably the most persecuted religion in the U.S. and if we don't fight it, it's going to get worse.

[Allegra]

Bahrain, Qatar, Iraq, all willfully host U.S. military.

And Kuwait, the "Theater Gateway." They haven't forgotten who save their bacon in the 90s. :-)

[SaintDismas]

Dear Lord, Welcome your suffering servant into Your kingdom.
Please help these Catholics in that God forsaken country.

[farmer18th]

No. I reject the notion that the only correct interpretation of Islam is that of Bin Laden’s.

Since I've been accused of being a troll, and accused you of the same, let me just say this: everyone would LOVE to see Western Democracy in the middle east. Where I think you and Condi and Bush have it wrong is that this assumption of yours--that Bin Laden's Islam is a radical aberration--is flat wrong. Are most Muslims relatively peaceful, get-along sorts? Yes. Is there religion "get-along?" Absolutely not. The moderate Muslims routinely lose their arguments with their radical friends--because the radicals have it easier squaring their interpration with the Q'uran. Until we begin converting Muslims, we will not win this battle. We identified Marxism as an evil world view, and we prevented it from spreading. Islam may be a very large world cancer, but we can't treat cancer by failing to call it what it is.

[PapaBear3625]

No. I reject the notion that the only correct interpretation of Islam is that of Bin Laden’s. So I don’t see contradiction.

The only correct interpretation of Islam is Mohammod's

In the Quran we have

Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

The actions and behavior of Mohammad is what DEFINES "good and righteous" conduct for Muslims.

And who was Mohammad? Mohammad was a psychopathic desert bandit chieftain, a man who made his living from robbing caravans and pillaging towns and villages, a rapist, a child molester, a murderer, a liar. ALL these qualities of Mohammad MUST be held as examples to be followed by a devout Muslim

[LordBridey]

I can tell you about the Jews of Iran.

Thank you so much for sharing that. Absolutely fascinating.

[LordBridey]

The Greeks, under the boot of the Ottoman Turks, couldn't even speak Greek for years in public, and their religion was carried on in secret. It is a testimony to their faith, and I apologize to you for mis-reading your take on the oppressed, but complimenting the oppressed is no reason to give gutter-trash Muslims a pass on their approach to others. Islam is dangerous, and the fact that Islam allows some of its enemies to live, on their terms, is no testimony of virtue.

Yes, people's spiritual values and practices have a way being kept alive under the most oppressive conditions. There is an underground Catholic church in Communist China and under the Nazi's the man who would later become the pope was a secret seminarian. The list of these kind of examples is endless and not confined to one part of the world or one faith. I imagine the Muslims that would somehow escape your proposed pogroms would continue their worship in secret.

[farmer18th]

The list of these kind of examples is endless and not confined to one part of the world or one faith. I imagine the Muslims that would somehow escape your proposed pogroms would continue their worship in secret.

Let's see if I make your thinking a little more linear:

Literally thousands of violent acts of terror against innocent civilians have taken place, since 9/11, where onlookers heard the words "Allahu Akbar" shortly before the glass began shattering and the blood began spraying. Many of these acts of terror had the fingerprints of official Muslim states and others merely had their blessing--along with cheering in the streets and sermons of praise by Islamic religious leaders. Serious scholars are belittled for connecting those events to their root source--Islam. Even our new "western-style" Iraqi leaders can't quite bring themselves to denouce the Hezbollah terrorists, lobbing shells into Israel..and you call a desire to isolate Islam, and its adherents, from the civilized west, a "pogram."

That sounds very much like cowardice.