Lurker: The Universe is an extremely disordered, random, and dangerous place...It's literally impossible to find any 'order' in it. People have been trying to do that since the time of Copernicus. All have failed.RightWhale:Order is in the mind, that is, subjective, that is, in the imagination.
Lurker: Sorry to quibble, but this whole 'order in the Universe proves that there is a God' thing is hokum. I don't deny the existence of God, but saying that the Universe is orderly is just not true.
Well I'm glad we got THAT cleared up.
ahem...just to clear up a few miscellaneous loose ends,
1. RightWhale, is the mind part of the universe?
2. Lurker, if the universe is disordered and random, what sense are we to make of your truth claim? It seems that you must presuppose that which you deny, namely; an orderly universe, otherwise your truth claims would be unintelligible and incoherent.
Are the orderly laws of logic, for example, also imaginary and subjective? Or are they universal and prescriptive? If they are just relativistic preferences for thinking, rather than prescriptive requirements, then truth claims such as have been made above would seem to be without any foundation at all, and futile. How do you even know that your stipulations for the mind are applicable to the world of thought or matter outside the individual mind? On the other hand if law of logic are universal, prescriptive requirements, how do you explain or account for said characteristics of logical laws in a disordered, random universe?
Is it even possible to tell from within it if a system such as the universe is really random?
Cordially,
Husserl attempted to clarify all this in his last writings and did fine although not finishing the work due to being indisposed. That is, all this is old business done with a century ago.