Maybe you just don't know what "Attack" means:
attack
1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.You don't get to redefine words in the english language, and as Rush says, "Words mean things"...
2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
5. to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.
6. to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack house cleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily.
7. (of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect.
–verb (used without object)
8. to make an attack; begin hostilities.
–noun
9. the act of attacking; onslaught; assault.
10. a military offensive against an enemy or enemy position.
11. Pathology. seizure by disease or illness: an attack of indigestion.
12. the beginning or initiating of any action; onset.
13. an aggressive move in a performance or contest.
14. the approach or manner of approach in beginning a musical phrase.
You attacked my religion, and you attacked me, you started this conversation between us by attacking my religion therefore by definition, You are the Attacker, and I am the Defender.
Defender
1. to ward off attack from; guard against assault or injury (usually fol. by from or against): The sentry defended the gate against sudden attack.I am truly sorry for you that your grasp of english is so bad that it has led you to believe that you can attack someone's religion, and they can become the attacker, by making the first move against them you have forever removed from them, in english anyway, the role of attacker.
2. to maintain by argument, evidence, etc.; uphold: She defended her claim successfully.
3. to contest (a legal charge, claim, etc.).
4. Law. to serve as attorney for (a defendant): He has defended some of the most notorious criminals.
5. to support (an argument, theory, etc.) in the face of criticism; prove the validity of (a dissertation, thesis, or the like) by answering arguments and questions put by a committee of specialists.
6. to attempt to retain (a championship title, position, etc.), as in a competition against a challenger.
–verb (used without object)
7. Law. to enter or make a defense.
Perhaps this inability to use language correctly is indicative of your problem here, from your posts, i would say that you don't really read the Bible, as much as take direction from a pastor or bible study teacher, you don't read collateral material except top go on the internet and look up other people's arguments and as such when you get your teeth handed to you in a baggy in a debate, you accuse the person you assaulted verbally of attacking you.
Let me give you an example of the ridiculousness with which I view your claim here:
I am walking to my Car with my wife, you jump out with a knife and threaten my wife, I put up a vigorous defense, and when the police arrive, you tell them I attacked you. When I say I was attacked, you say no, I was only attacking your wife... See you in jail buddy.
BTW, all your "Statements of Fact" have no supporting documentation, and please, this time, don't bother with copying form anti Mormon sites, source everything with links, or I will be forced to taunt you again.
U Said: Funny, I wasn't aware you wanted links. I did provide a You Tube video
This is a joke right? Give me a few minutes and if you want, I'll put up a refuting Video on youtube. (seriously, you need to learn the word "authoritative" Your youtube video is not authoritative, it's some Guys opinion set to video, sheesh.
Warning, this may be considered insulting, how old are you? Have you ever had debate or Critical thinking classes, if not, I would suggest an addition to your High school curriculum, if you are older than that, maybe a few nights at the local community college would help. (Really, I'm not trying to "Attack you", but offer some help as you appear to need it).
U Said: enough information that someone who truly wanted to check it out could easily do so by googling. Beyond that, my assertions can be substantiated even though the claims of Mormonism can not be.
OK, follow this logic, hey you could do research and prove yourself wrong, no really, I could substantiate my claims, and you can't so I'm right because I could prove it, if I really wanted to.
Really seriously, take a debate class, get off your duff and do some research, I suggest you start by actually reading the Book of Mormon, otherwise all you have to offer is an uninformed opinion. If you are not going to do any work yourself, well, I'll just have to taunt you until you go away.
U Said: What is distasteful is the LDS teaching the God and Mary were husband and wife and begot Jesus through marital relations.
This is totally and completely not a Mormon teaching. This is a fabrication made up be people who want to misinterpret what we say and then say that means marital relations. It is official Cannonized Church Doctrine that Mary was a virgin which precludes Sex with anyone. Get your mind out of the gutter.
U Said: First, Scripture indicates it was the Holy Spirit who overshadowed her, not the Father. Yes we believe that it was though he action of the Holy Ghost. U Said: Second, she was still a virgin when Jesus was born.
Yes, we believe that, we don't believe in the re appearing hymen thing the Catholics go in for and perpetual virginity, etc, but when Jesus was Born she still had not had physical relations with anyone so she was a virgin.
U Said: This teaching is tantamount to a denial of the virgin birth.
It would be, if we taught that, we don't we teach that Jesus was the literal son of God. genetically and in every other way that is meaningful, however, we do not say Sex was involved, the church says we don't know how it was done, but that it was done using natural laws. We can create a virgin birth now with artificial insemination, I'm sure God has a perfect way of accomplishing his purposes.
Let me iterate, Momrons do not believe that God and Mary had Sex, the very idea is insulting, disgusting and blasphemous to us. Anyone who says such things in abeyance of the facts available on our web site must have a dirty mind for they must enjoy thinking about it, I submit that Jesus being a dutiful son will take a dim view of anyone who promotes such a theory about his mother.
U Said: As to us being obsessed with it, not hardly. But we do call it out when we recognize it.
Ah, but you see things where they are not really there.
Your quote from orson pratt notwithstanding, Mary was a virgin, the holy Ghost overshadowed her, that's it, afterwards she was still a virgin, get it?
I Said: Mormons Believe that God is the Father of our Spirits... Heb. 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?How exactly do you father Spirits? Mormons don't claim to know, yet anti Mormons always want to talk about celestial Sex, I think you all have dirty minds.
U Said: Disgusting personal attack aside, all I will say is that context is important.
ROTFLOL! If I attack you you'll know it. This was not an attack, but an honest opinion the first anti Mormons to attack me with this false doctrine pressed his case so hard the Mods banned him because they were disgusted.
U Said: This text is not saying we were all spirits once upon a time and were sired by the Father.
So we should just take your word for it that the Scripture, quoted, linked and plain as the nose on your face (no slight about your nose intended) is wrong because you say so without backup? Sorry, nope, the Bible means what it says.
U Said: It doesn't support the Mormon doctrine of us being the spirit children of God who came to earth and incarnated human bodies. Such a doctrine destroys the uniqueness of the Incarnation of Christ, as well as to some extent the uniqueness of Christ altogether.
While that's an interesting opinion, the facts of the matter are not up for your interpretation, the Bible says what it says, and there are other places where pre-exisistance of Man is referenced in the Bible, but this post is going to be too long as it is.
U Said: It is hellacious. (NOTE: I DID NOT SAY YOU WERE HELLACIOUS. I SAID SUCH A DOCTRINE WAS HELLACIOUS AS IN A LIE FROM THE PIT OF HELL).Again, an interesting opinion, I'll file it in the appropriate receptacle for all such unsubstantiated opinions:
U Said: Jesus is the beginning but didn't have a beginning.
The Bible does not say that, you did.
U Said: He is the creator of everything else.
True... Define else... :)
U Said: He began it all.
Define "it all"...
U Said: He is the first and last.
Yep, agree with this one
U Said: He has been and will always be eternal.
Yep, anyone who exists out of time is...
U Said: Eternally preexistent.
This is Gibberish, and not in the Bible Show me one scripture that says "Eternally preexistent" just one...
U Said: Eternally existent into the future.
Yep.
U Said: It is Mormonism that destroys this doctrine.
Only the Gibberish un-Biblical parts, the True Gospel is affirmed, that's what happens when you restore something that has been corrupted.
U Said: Scripture, on the other hand says of God: Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:1 Timothy 1:16
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Normally, when someone lays down a barrage of disjointed scriptures, I cut it out, but yours was so badly formatted, I wanted you to see how much easier it is to read when formatted, paragraphs are your friend, FRiend.
I do notice you included one of the Scriptures which mentions the Godhead, which is what we believe... I never seem to have the problem with Scriptures that say "Trinity", (Snicker)...
We Read and agree with all those scriptures, of course as we interpret them, you read them and interpret them and say "See your Wrong!" It's funny, I can see your perspective and just disagree with that interpretation, you don't even understand mine yet you want to dismiss it while not understanding it.
I Said: Apparently I need to explain the Difference between a faith, and religion.
U Said: Apparently you do not. Jose Miranda says he is Jesus. He is not.
You are as bad as he is, you keep trying to decide who is Christ's and who is not, quite frankly, it's none of your business, because you are not Jesus.
U Said: Just because he says he believes in Jesus does not make him a Christian. The Jesus he believes in is himself. It is a false Jesus.
U Said: Muslims say they believe in Jesus. Yet, their Jesus was just a prophet who didn't die on the cross. They have a faith and a religion. But they also have a false Jesus. Why is it false? Because their "Jesus" is a direct contradiction to Scripture - as is Mormonism.
U Said: We serve two different Jesus's.
Only if you are not serving the one in the bible... Are you working for the Guy in Mexico you keep talking about?
U Said: Mine is the one found in the Holy Bible.
Then why doesn't it match what is said in the holy Bible?
U Said: Yours is the Jesus of Mormonism which is a different Jesus.
We worship the Jesus spoken of in the Bible, if you wish to worship a different Jesus, that is your prerogative, it is not however for you to decide who I worship, you are not me.
I Said: Now, I have stated and testified that I have Faith in Jesus, you no more get to define which or what Jesus than I get to write checks on you bank account. As for who is acceptable to Jesus, Jesus will decide that, and here is a news flash for you, you are not him.
U Said: I don't define it. Scripture does.
O Pulese, you interpret scripture and then claim your interpretation has the force of God's might behind it, enjoying your little power trip, in God's name? too bad it's all in your head.
U Said: it also says we are to judge as to what is true and false.
Mark 13
says "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."Yes, and the Bible tells us how to know, in First John 4:1-3 Where is says:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.I have tested the Book of Mormon by the test in the Bible, you dismiss it based upon your own understanding. I am relying upon the arm of God, you are relying upon the arm of flesh.
U Said: Do you really expect Jesus to have made a statement such as this and not expect his people to use the wisdom of Scripture to ascertain the difference.
As I have, and you have not even tried. You instead have leaned on your own understanding, Prayer, not logic, revelation, not argument.
U Said: On all of the issues I have mentioned and more, the Jesus of Mormonism simply fails the Scripture test.
So you keep saying, and not proving...
I however, keep proving my points with Scripture.
U Said: I'm glad you are worked up. I am not saying this just to have an argument. I'm saying this because I see someone who is very zealous about false doctrine.
Been looking in the mirror lately?
U Said: I believe you have been misled and that misleading has eternal consequences.
Unfortunately, the shoe is actually on the other foot, you are the one who has been misled. Why would I be encouraging people to pray about something that if they Did, and I was wrong, God would tell them it was wrong? Your arguments however have all been based on your interpretation of Scripture, I have not seen you once refer to praying to God to he has to say.
U Said: First, if you have been on the religion forums here at all, and I suspect you have
On this you are correct.
U Said: you know the difference between a personal attack and an attack on a faith system or belief. By the stance you are taking, there would be no conversation at all because nobody could make dogmatic truth claims about their faith or against another faith without it being taken personally.
Actually, you are mistaken, I have had some very pleasant conversations with some posters who do not start out by Damning me to Hell (hand basket optional).
Your approach instead of Arguing scripture and history seems to be judge, impugn and slander. Such an approach is a personal attack on those of that Faith where the other is not.
U Said: Second, I can not take from you what you do not possess.
You do have this correct as well, but not for th reasons you think, I do not "possess" Jesus, quite the reverse actually, I have given myself to him, and he has accepted me.
U Said: Take that personally if you want to. But, if I am right, and Scripture says I am
You know, you ahven't won one of the "Scripture says" assertions yet, stop while you are behind, I hate to trounce someone this badly.
U Said: then you are basing your eternity on your own performance - something that Scripture is explicit against.
Again withe false preaching of my Doctrine, I am not basing my salvation on my "performance" and I'm afraid to ask what exactly you mean by that. Momrons believe in Being saved by Grace, we also believe in Works as the Bible teaches (James 2: 14-26 anyone?
U Said: Ephesians 2:8-9 says explicitly that our salvation is NOT OF WORKS. PERIOD. No further questions. It isn't Jesus plus.... it is Jesus only. Period.
Speaking of only reading the scriptures of the Bible you like, hello, there are books other than Ephisians, Try Revelations on for Size:
Revelations 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.I know you'd love to say Grace only, you don't actually have to keep the Commandments you have been given, but it just does not work that way. Go and Read James 2: 14-26, pray about it, it's the Bible for Crying out loud, don't be afraid of it, then once you've read it, Pray to God and see what he has to say about it. Don't take my word for it, don't take some Preachers word for it, God answers prayers! ASK HIM HE COMMANDED IT in Matt. 7: 7 and Luke 11: 9 look em up, they are clickable, and it's the KJV Bible, come on read and pray!
[U Said: The CLEAR teaching of Scripture is that there is only one God.]
I Said: On that, I agree.
U Said: In what way do you agree with this?
I worship only one God, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and Jacob, the Godhead the three personages so united that they are one in heart might mind and strength.
U Said: Do you deny Mormonism teachings that there are many gods in existence and that Jesus and the Father are two gods?
This is three questions, A) I do not deny Mormonism teachings I affirm them with all my heart.
B) If there are other Gods, what is that to ME, I do not worship them, they are not my God (Some people worship cars, money or football teams, me, I worship God.) also see
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
C) Jesus and God are two separate Distinct if you will beings, but one God. The Godhead you referenced earlier in Scripture when the Bible was translated into English, Godhead was defined as three persons God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost who were so united that they were of one heart might mind and strength, thus they are one God. This doctrine is easy to understand compare to the Trinity, don't pretend not to understand further, you just look silly.
U Said: I'm not going to allow you to nuance this one.
I was not aware that you could control my typing, can you see me though my monitor too? (LOL) I have never tried to "nuance you" I am giving you answers that are straight forward. The problem is your perspective and mine are so divergent that you cannot see my point of view even when I spell it out, Stop interpreting my words, I am saying exactly what I mean.
U Said: Given your denial of the trinity, I would say you do not believe there is only one God.
Again, you interpret my words, stop it, i am speaking english, not Chinese.
U Said: Rather, you would probably say there is one god over earth but there are other gods.
Men make Gods of anything they place first in their lives. If a man loves his Car or his TV, or his porn, or his wife more than God than he has sinned and has place another God before God. Exodus 20:3
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Why Command that if Men can't have other Gods, thus they exist. To those who are Christians however, there is only one God we will worship, the God of Abraham, and Of Isaac, and of Jacob.
U Said: If you don't you aren't in alignment with the teaching of your church.
I am perfectly in alignment with the teachings of my church, thanks for asking.
U Said: Your statement here (Actually, It is Biblically accurate, See 1 Cor. 8: 5 They exist, but we are to worship only the God of Abraham, and of Isaac and of Jacob.) indicates it is just another attempt to redefine Christianity on Mormon terms. Sorry, that dog won't hunt.
So, the Scripture does not mean what it says, but what you say it says, and are you a prophet? Wait, you don't believe in modern day prophets...
U Said: I was clear as to what Scripture teaches.
ROTFLOL! No really, I quote scripture and you want to interpret it to mean the opposite and then you tell me you were clear? LOL!
U Said: Mormonism is contrary to Scripture.
"Mormonism is contrary to your interpretation of Scripture", there, fixed it for you.
U Said: Your post is too long for the time that I have this afternoon to deal with it, and I suspect my answers wouldn't do much good anyway.
I feel your pain, no really. I too am doing this in my "Spare time" there are however several anti Mormons who are full time anti's who work for churches here, you should study their tactics, you could learn a few tricks. Not that they help in the long run.
U Said: As to links, here are a few that you might want to look at. It's up to you.
Likewise, I'm sure:
The Nicene Creed (Catholic encyclopedia)
The First Council of Nicaea (Catholic encyclopedia)
Arian controversy (Wikipedia)
Hippolytus, a refutation of all heresies book 4 (Catholic encyclopedia - Church Fathers)
This person was greatly puffed up and inflated with pride, being inspired by the conceit of a strange spirit. He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. You see what pride of heart and what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. Froth his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance.Hippolytus Book X (the last book)
"Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya. And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics, but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!You gave me a bunch of Anti sites, i have given you some actual historical documentation from Websites that there is no way I can have influenced, research them, read the quotations, follow the links prove i am lying if you can, but now I'll give you no one return fire web sites that answer all the Stuff on the anti sites you quoted.
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God: for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality. This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself" i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings, rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!"
JeffLindsay.com BYU Farms Edward Watson's web world Lastly, let me testify to you that God loves you, and i am his messenger, repent of the pride in your posts, Come unto God in prayer, ask his guidance and accept his answers for God will never lead you astray.
Blessed be the name of God, and may God bless you, amen.