U Said: Second, Christ (the Word-the 2nd Person of the Trinity-Jn.1:1-2) created everything, including the Angels (Col.1:16-17) So, Satan (Lucifer) is not a brother of Jesus Christ. You are assuming the Trinity to be a true doctrine, which sadly it is not, thus your logic falls apart there, but I do understand and Sympathize with what you are trying to do here, Please read my section on the Trinity it links a bunch of Documents from the Catholic enclyclopedia, and I try not to post monster posts in thread, thanks! U Said: The second member of the Trinity, became a human being, not an Angel (2:16), and that is why only He can call the Father, Father, since He is the Father's only begotten Son, not any of the Angels. (Heb.1:5) You have already Gone astray on the Biggest point of doctrinal difference between Mormons and and "Orthodox" Christians, we don't believe in the Trinity which is not to be found anywhere in the Bible, we believe in the Godhead which is in the Bible. The Big difference in the Trinity and the Godhead is the Trinity has God and Christ being of the same substance, where the Godhead has them having unity of Thought, Might Mind and Strength, but a distinctness of persons. Well, you really don't understand the Trinity then.
The Trinity has God the Father, God the Son (The Word before He was begotten), and God the Holy Ghost as having the same Divine Substance (all three being Eternal and Perfect).
And all three being distinct Persons as well, each having Intellect, Sensibility and Will.
So, in the Eternal Unity of Perfection of the three, there is also diversity of Persons.
We could spend lots of time throwing scriptures at each other, and nobody will win (although it can be cathartic), or we can discuss like adults the differences these differing perspectives give us. Not to try to argue, but so you can understand what kind of "Unity" I am talking about, Adam and eve were commanded to be "one flesh", yet retained their distinctness. Jesus commanded the Disciples to be one even as he and the father were one, I know you don't believe that, but I do, and I can make a good argument that that is what the early church fathers believed, if we have to go down that road. However, I find it more fascinating to discuss the difference this seeming small perspective shift makes in the scriptures. To me the Baptism of Jesus is an event attended by he father, to you it is a spiritual not literal event, upon he cross, the father had to allow Jesus to die on his own, and Jesus complains about being left alone by God the Father.
First, at the Baptism of Christ, all three Persons were present, the Father who spake, and the Holy Ghost depicted as a dove and ofcourse, Jesus Christ.
On the Cross, it was the human nature of Christ that was bearing the sins of the world, and that was the relationship that was broken.
The unity between the Trinity can never be broken.
I have an adopted uncle who is Jewish (he was disowned by his family when he first joined) Who told me that the Jews had a tradition that the Father had to attend the Bris (Circumcision) of their sons as a type of God standing by while his son was hurt. There is so much we can teach each other, anybody want to, or are we going to bash scriptures till we both turn blue?
Well, if you are preaching a false gospels of grace plus works, it is our responsibility to let you know and others as well.
We are to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.
Your religion rejects the truth of the Trinity and thus, the Christ you are believing on is not the Christ of the Bible but another Jesus , another spirit and another Gospel (2Cor.11:4).
Think about it.
I have and one of us is right and on the the way to heaven and the other one is wrong and on the way to Hell.
So we are dealing with the most important issue there is, the salvation of one's very soul.
God bless.
Thank you and I hope you will come to the knowledge of the truth of the real Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, Perfect man and Perfect God, who died for the sins of the world so that one can be have eternal life forever by grace, through faith.
U Said: Well, you really don't understand the Trinity then.
I submit that no one does.
U Said: The Trinity has God the Father, God the Son (The Word before He was begotten), and God the Holy Ghost as having the same Divine Substance (all three being Eternal and Perfect).
See it's the same substance thing...
U Said: And all three being distinct Persons as well, each having Intellect, Sensibility and Will.
So are you a modalist? I Believe that God, Christ and the Holy Ghost all exist simultaneously, do you believe that, or do you believe the substance of God changes "modes" from one to the other?
U Said: So, in the Eternal Unity of Perfection of the three, there is also diversity of Persons.
I would love to have a logical conversation on this with you devoid of people damning me to hell every third sentence, can you do that?
U Said: First, at the Baptism of Christ, all three Persons were present, the Father who spake, and the Holy Ghost depicted as a dove and of course, Jesus Christ.
See, now this sounds like what I would say, for it shows the Distinct nature of the Godhead (a word that's actually in the Bible)
U Said: On the Cross, it was the human nature of Christ that was bearing the sins of the world, and that was the relationship that was broken.
Here we would disagree, Jesus was fully there, fully cognizant the whole time, I have even talked to some Trintarians who believe that Jesus was essentially "Possessed" by the spirit of God all his life, and then on the cross, the Spirit left him alone as a mortal. I reject and rebuke such notions as unworthy of the nature of God.
I believe that Jesus being Fully man and Fully God could Choose to Die, Because he inherited mortality from his mother he was able to Die as all men Do, but because he inherited immortality from his Father (God the Father) he could not be forced to Die, he had to choose to, I also believe that The very presence of the Father or the Holy Ghost would have prevented this Death which was necessary to take away the curse of Adam from men. Thus God and the Holy Ghost withdrew from Jesus, leaving him alone with that terrible weight, that terrible responsibility that wonderful act of love as he Consciously chose to die, for us, for me. You assume I have no love of Jesus, but I am crying as I write this with Gratitude in my heart and sadness too, there is much beauty that is missed by those who believe the trinity, it robs men of an understanding of how great and wonderful that sacrifice was.
U Said: The unity between the Trinity can never be broken.
That would depend entirely on what you mean by Unity, you and I may have completely different definitions, and while I hate to bring semantics into this, we cannot understand each other unless we use the same definitions for things, what do you mean by the unity of God?
U Said: Well, if you are preaching a false gospels of grace plus works, it is our responsibility to let you know and others as well.
I believe the Bible teaches Grace plus works. I will give you two scriptures to look up, which I hope will give you an understanding of why I say that.
James 2:14-26 And
Revelations 20:12 I believe that in the end, it is by grace we are saved.
U Said: We are to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.
I understand, and I believe that I am supposed to do that too. Unfortunately one of us is wrong about what they taught. You believe i have been steeped in traditions of Mormonism until I can no longer see the truth, and I believe that you have been steeped in the traditions of Trinitarianism until you can no longer see the truth. The difference is all i ask is for others to read and Pray and see what God says, your side seems to argue from the Doctrines of Men and I've even had some "Christians" tell me that if I pray Satan will answer. To me that's just not Biblical and it's not right.
U Said: Your religion rejects the truth of the Trinity and thus, the Christ you are believing on is not the Christ of the Bible but another Jesus, another spirit and another Gospel (2Cor.11:4).
Your REligion has Changed the very meaning of God, allowing a Pagan to influence the definition, and then adding this to the gospel while at the same time saying that any further revelation is not possible. Which means that by Definition the "Trinity" is not a revealed doctrine and is not true. Trinitarians are not teaching the Jesus of the Bible, thus I can follow your logic, and quote
2Cor.11:4 in fulfillment of
2Thes 2:2-3.
Again, we can damn each other to hell and beat each other about the head and shoulders, or we can actually talk about what we believe and learn to understand each others perspective better.
U Said: I have and one of us is right and on the the way to heaven and the other one is wrong and on the way to Hell.
So we are dealing with the most important issue there is, the salvation of one's very soul.
I agree, but telling me what I believe will just lead to arguments when you get it wrong, don't you think? I usually try not to tell others what they believe, for I am not God, and I cannot know what is in their hearts. I do however enjoy learning what others perspectives are.
I spent two years on a mission in Taiwan, it changed my life forever. Here is one quote I learned while there, translated into English: "A truly wise man can learn from even a fool." Even if you think me foolish, you can learn from me and vice versa.
U Said: Thank you and I hope you will come to the knowledge of the truth of the real Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, Perfect man and Perfect God, who died for the sins of the world so that one can be have eternal life forever by grace, through faith.
Obviously, I know something of Jesus now, I readily admit that I still can learn for I do not know the meaning of all things. In that you are wishing me well on learning, I am grateful, and I wish you well in truly learning the nature of the Godhead in that same spirit.
Go with God.