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To: Colofornian
I know LDS consider Christ to just be a creature & a "saved being" who was something less than divine once upon a time...

That is a false statement.

Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament.

He is the Creator of this earth.

He came to Earth to atone for the sins of all who will follow him. He died on the cross for that atonement. That atonement provides that all will be resurrected after we leave here.

He is my personal Savior.

Anyone who would make a false statement like that is a bigot. He will be the Judge of all of us when we return to him.

79 posted on 01/17/2008 9:12:17 AM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Dan(9698)
Me: I know LDS consider Christ to just be a creature & a "saved being" who was something less than divine once upon a time...

You: That is a false statement. Jesus Christ is the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament. He is the Creator of this earth. He came to Earth to atone for the sins of all who will follow him. He died on the cross for that atonement. That atonement provides that all will be resurrected after we leave here. He is my personal Savior. Anyone who would make a false statement like that is a bigot. He will be the Judge of all of us when we return to him.

Let's, see. For doing the same thing LDS leaders have done--referencing Jesus as a creature and a saved being-- I'm accused of saying something false & being a "bigot." Well, was LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie a "bigot?"

"Christ is a saved being” (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth ‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being, one who had placed all things beneath his feet. ‘I am Alpha and Omega,’ he said, ‘Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment.’ (D&C 19:1-2.)” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)

(Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said Jesus "Needs salvation"...”Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

I also believe it was another LDS apostle, James Talmadge who referenced Jesus as a "saved being."

Jesus as a creature:

OK. LDS believe "Heavenly Father" = an exalted man. You mean to seriously tell me that you somehow believe that Heavenly Father is an exalted "creature" but somehow his son isn't? Again, let's look at McConkie, who states that God became a God by being saved by obedience to laws: “The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same.” (McConkie, Bruce R. A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1985. p. 64)

So essentially, McConkie taught "Heavenly Father" was a saved being, too...and a creature at that!

Secondly, we all know that LDS believe Lucifer was a "created spirit" (Christians believe he was a "created angel"). And we also know that LDS believe that Jesus was an elder "brother" to all "created spirits"--meaning that Jesus was on the same level as Lucifer at one time...other than he was born first. In fact, in the NT reference to Jesus as the "Firstborn"--LDS take that literally:

James E. Talmage: "Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh" and also "Among the spirit children of Elohim, the firstborn was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors." (A Study of the Articles of Faith, pp. 466, 471.)

On p. 466 of Articles of Faith, Talmage also says that Jesus was NOT the Creator of intelligences, which apparently had no beginning: (the spirits were "developed"--"organized"--since Joseph Smith didn't believe Jesus created anything out of nothing--from eternal "intelligences"):

God showed unto Abraham "the intelligences that were organized before the world was"; and by "intelligences" we are to understand personal "spirits" (Abraham 3:22-23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that "Intelligence" that is, "the light of truth was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 96:29)

110 posted on 01/17/2008 12:35:57 PM PST by Colofornian
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