Lurkers will once again note that DU still cannot under stand proper context, Paul’s rabbinic method of argument construction or even the full extent of the passage in 1 Corinthians. Paul arguing here not for resurrection in general, but specifically the resurrection of Jesus and how central to the Gospel he preached that resurrection is. If Christ didn’t raise from the dead, all the gospel was worthless. He was not arguing within the Corinth church, but reinforcing them against false teachings from without. This is the only verse in the Bible that mentions baptism for the dead. Notice that Paul is not advocating this practice. He merely makes a passing reference to some group outside of the church that had such a practice. His emphasis throughout that chapter is on the resurrection. Had baptism for the dead been a primary function of the early church surely there would be more teaching on it than this casual reference. So Mormonism snatches a single phrase and constructs and entire doctrine about it.
So, by Asking people to Pray about the Book of Mormon, I challenged you? I'm sorry, I didn't see it that way. How does asking God about truth challenge you?
You said I should accept the word of the ‘witnesses’, a people who Smith later had excommunicated. Hardly a resounding endorsement.
Since you have said you have read things in Farms, here, read this Ensign article titled "Why have changes been made in the printed editions of the Book of Mormon?" It's an official answer in a magazine published by the church, that makes it a good study guide, but not Cannon of the church JFTR.
And later….
UM, no, have you ever written a book that was being read to you? It's kind of like telephone "stuff" gets lost in the "air waves". Plus you did not give "Example" in any meaning full sense, you paraphrase and later say you were definitive. You have continued to offer subjective opinions and claim them to be objective. Show me a list of Thousands of changes that do not include punctuation and Spelling. I'm calling you out mister! Show me a list!
Sorry, my browser won’t let me download that document. But I have read enough of their apologetic on other pages to know the gist. Their problem is that their excuses run contrary to the testimony of the witnesses at that time. Since the following citations, being closer to the actual event, and coming from the mouths of the prophets holds more weight than speculation by FARMS:
“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth.” (J Smith, The History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints)
"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.
President/ prophet J.F.Smith taught that “The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the book to appear on the stones in short sentences or word, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect, the writing on the stones would remain there.” until the mistake was corrected. (Journal of Oliver Huntington III, p 168) JFS also asserted that “There was no need for eliminating, changing, or adjusting any part of it (bom) to make it fit; but each new revelation on doctrine and priesthood fitted into its place perfectly to complete the whole structure” (Doctrines of Salvation).
Your grammar and spelling argument runs counter to your own church history, prophets and teaching. Since God made and supervised the translation, we would expect the 1830 edition to be exactly as God wanted it to be. The prophet JF Smith agrees with that assessment and reinforced it as doctrinal teaching. Furthermore, you have avoided answering “off the top of your head” the very specific NON grammar or spelling changes I posted. Since you have been incessantly whining about the length of these posts, you know where to go back and find them.
There is plenty of evidence both For and against the Book of Mormon, let me guess, you have only looked at what is perceived as being against...
It might be worth a few chuckles to see the ‘for’ evidence FWIW. However, the credibility of a document, absent any extant MS besides the 1830 original, that makes claims of events that happened in America that can be verified. If those claims are found to be bogus, with the additional issues with the book, the verdict is that the bom is a fraud. For beginners, the bom is not recognized by either the National Geographic Society or Smithsonian Institution as being a valid document of worth to learn of pre-Columbus Americas. The prestigious BYU has no specific mormon archaeology department because there are no mormon archaeological sites to study. But that might be too harsh, so perhaps you can answer these questions from the scientific community apart from FARMS as they are biased and IF the claims of the bom are true, they would be verified independently:
1. Have any of the cities in the BOM been located?
2. Have any BOM names in New World inscriptions been found?
3. Have any any Hebrew inscriptions been found in America?
4. Well, any Egyptian inscriptions in America been found? "No". 5. How about anything even resembling Egyptian even been found in America?
6. Have any ancient copies of the BOM been found?
7. Have anthropologists found any ancient Native American cultures who held Jewish or Christian beliefs?
8. Has ANY mention of previously unknown BOM persons, places, or nations been found ANYWHERE?
9. Is there proof that Native Americans are really of Semitic stock?
10. If the BOM is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision)
You were saying I was attacking you, I was saying "That's not a knife, this is a knife" (Crocodile Dundee refrence)
I identified it as a threat and unlike you I know the difference between a threat and an attack. But I’ll have the popcorn ready anyway. BTW, your spell checker broke?
Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
hoti en auto katoikei (3SPAI) pan to pleroma ten theotetos somatikos, 'K so you speak Greek, congrtulations, what is meant by fullness?
And you talk about my spelling LOL. You need to use a English-greek lexicon or dictionary to define ‘fullness’, as those documents will define it within its proper context. The complete extent of the definition of fullness is found in context of the passage. Here the word means the unbounded powers and attributes of God. In association with the term deity (theotetos – Godhead in the KJV) makes it clear that Jesus is not only God-like, He is God. Or in terms not to confuse you further, in Jesus the complete, unbounded powers and attributes (everything that defines the Godhead) of the Godhead, physically and spiritually dwell within when he was a man as well as now after the resurrection. In Christianity that is 100%, in mormonism that can be no more than 33%.
Yawn, I guess you subscribe to the "If you say something often enough ..." school of debate. Fortunately, I am immune for I know what I believe and it is not for you to define.
I didn’t know the doctrines taught by the prophet smith bored you.
This is not Mormon Doctrine, they are three persons and one God, the Godhead.
You are sounding seriously confused or you got your crib notes mixed up. You are reciting a Trinitarian formula – not mormon doctrine established below:
Doctrine and Covenants 130:22: The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
The Father is god with a body of flesh and bone (god 1), Jesus has a separate body of flesh and bone (god 2) and the holy spirit is the odd thing out (an unheard of ‘god’ without flesh and blood, yet god 3). How does this flesh out? James Talmage said "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith ) Bruce McConkie states: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead...As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us...these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-577). Since the General Authority has not rebuked this relatively straightforward presentation of DC 130:22 and even endorses it, you are sadly confused. Multiple gods = polytheism by definition.
Why, what was it in before Greek? (some books were written in Greek some were not.)
You need to go read FF Bruce sometime and understand how the Bible was recorded and transmitted to us. It is safe to say that Colossians was written in Greek. There are no internal textural evidences in the document to indicate that the Greek MS of Colossians were translated from some other language.
Why does the NWT mistranslate this as "divine quality" in Col 2:9, instead of "Godhead".
That is because the NWT is not an accepted Christian translation, but a Jehovah Witness published ‘translation’. Their exogenesis of the Greek is not supported by the vast majority of other Greek scholarship. I’m sure you’d get along with them just fine :)
Nice try, but Godhead is in fact in the Bible, and Trinity is not.
KJV only and that based upon 1611 language and is not translated that way in modern versions. You and the KJV only folks are probably in bed together on this. Is ‘godhead’ found in any other of your standard works?
Acts 7: 55-56
He saw God's glory (that Jesus shares as God) and Jesus "standing" with the metaphor (dexios) ‘at the right hand’.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?Now, lets create some example arguments using this style for sins to promote righteousness you allege... Examples:
What shall they do which commit adultery if marriages were never made, why then do they commit adultery?I hope the lurkers get the point.
What shall they do which murder if no one is born, why then do they murder?
What Shall they do which steal if there are none who labor to earn, why then do they steal?
Most anti-Mormon attacks on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon suffer from several severe logical flaws. The authors are inadequately informed about Latter-day Saint history, doctrine, and scripture; they have not read the text of the Book of Mormon carefully; they distort both what the text of the Book of Mormon says and the variety of Latter-day Saint interpretations of the text; they attempt to make all Latter-day Saint scholars responsible for the private opinions of some Latter-day Saint authors or General Authorities; and they frequently argue solely from the authority of selected authors or scholars, rather than providing evidence, analysis, and argumentation to support their case. They seldom advance the discussion by dealing with current Latter-day Saint thinking on the matter, being content instead to rely on an ad nauseum repetition of anti-Mormon arguments, many of which have been around—and have had adequate Latter-day Saint responses—for over a century.U Said: 1. Have any of the cities in the BOM been located?
Exciting and fairly recent discoveries in Mesoamerica which have caused a complete paradigm shift in the thinking of scholars. Until recently, experts believed ancient Central America and southern Mexico (Mesoamerica) to have been a peaceful, tranquil place during the times that the Book of Mormon speaks of frequent, large-scale wars. Now it is known that warfare was relatively common. Further, the discoveries of ancient fortifications that fueled the paradigm shift are remarkably consistent with descriptions of fortifications given in the Book of Mormon. Together, the evidence about ancient warfare and fortifications in Mesoamerica strengthens the case for the plausibility of the Book of Mormon as an ancient text. For details, see my Mesoamerican Fortifications page.U Said: 2. Have any BOM names in New World inscriptions been found?
South of Albuquerque, and west of Los Lunas, New Mexico, an ancient inscription was carved into the face of a boulder centuries ago. It is the text of the Ten Commandments, written in Hebrew! Of particular interest is the fact that the type of Hebrew writing that was used was Paleo-Hebrew, which is the form of Hebrew writing that was used for approximately a one-thousand-year period, ending about 500 BC. This means that we can fairly conclude that the inscription of the Ten Commandments was engraved on the face of a boulder in New Mexico, North America, sometime prior to 500 BC! This is one proof that Hebrew people were on the land of America many centuries before the birth of the Messiah.U Said: 4. Well, any Egyptian inscriptions in America been found? "No".
Very interestingly, a cross-link has been found between a modified style of ancient Egyptian writing, a tribe of North American Indians, and the characters that were used to write the ancient Nephite Scriptures! A modified or reformed style of Egyptian writing has been in use for many centuries by the Micmac [Mi-kmaw] Indians, of Northeastern America, a division of the Algonquin people. When the first Europeans made contact with the Micmacs, they discovered that they, unlike almost all other Native American tribes, already had a written language! That, in and of itself, was remarkable. But, what is most remarkable is the fact that the written language of the Micmac people of North America contains a very high percentage of characters that are either identical to, or slightly modified from an ancient style of Egyptian writing, known as hieratic! Not only are several characters the same, but the meaning of the words translates exactly the same! This proves that there was, at some ancient time, connection between someone who wrote in a modified form of Egyptian hieratic writing, and the Micmac Indian people of North America! [This is also consistent with the history presented within the Record of the Nephites.]U Said: 5. How about anything even resembling Egyptian even been found in America?
BaptismThe records of the ancient Indians in the Americas are replete with stories that are very obviously Christian in origin, the great white God, and Baptism are only two such evidences.
The most remarkable thing the Catholic priests discovered after the Indians were conquered was their affinity with the stories and customs of the Bible.
They described a 'baptism' in one of the temples of Tenochtitlan, when a child was sprinkled with water and given a name, just as in the churches of the Old World. The priest said: "Take and receive, for on this earth you will live on water, water makes you grow and flourish, water gives us what we need for our life - receive this water." The Aztecs also used incense (so did the Incas). They received large quantities of resin for incense, as can be seen from their tribute lists.
The Spaniards saw the Aztec priests 'forgive sins'. At this ceremony small pieces of bread were distributed among the faithful in the temple. They ate the bread in a very devout manner, thereby propitiating the gods - so one of the Indians explained the ceremony. In the time of the first Spaniards a form of 'confession' was still going on in the Indian temples; they watched the priests blessing a marriage, saw the sacred crosses in the temples, and heard of the White God of the Indians, said to be born of a virgin of immaculate conception.
In the Americas, too, data have come to light about unexpected human achievements. In a critical reexamination of past research on the pottery of the Amazon basin, North American archaeologist Anna C. Roosevelt has put together a plausible argument that the making of pottery in that area dates much earlier than has been acknowledged before. To support her case, she has published 22 radiocarbon dates that were done at the Smithsonian laboratory between 1972 and 1986 but were never published. It seems that Amazonian pottery began between 5000 and 6000 BC (some have suggested that it came from Africa) and is now the most securely dated New World ceramic tradition, existing at least 1,000 years before the next earliest, from Colombia.So, they found an ancient body that had a parasite that couldn't have been there unless it came by boat from the middle east...
Furthermore, a dried-up human corpse, radiocarbon dated to around 5200 BC, has been found in northeastern Brazil, not far from the early pottery center. There was evidence that the intestinal tract of this person had been infested with hookworms. The nature of the reproductive cycle of the hookworm rules out their having reached the New World via a cold country (the Bering Strait, as is usually supposed). Specialists on parasites are absolutely sure that the only way for those organisms to have reached the Americas from the Far East, where they are known much earlier, was inside human hosts who traveled from East Asia by boat.9
The whole idea of ancient religious communities preserving and hiding sacred records for future times seemed a lot less ridiculous after the find of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The community at Qumran took careful steps to "embalm" their records before they were buried, seeking to preserve hidden sacred records for future generations. Details on ancient practices to hide and preserve documents, including whole libraries of buried documents, and in particular the use of metal documents in stone boxes, are given by H. Curtis Wright in "Metal Documents in Stone Boxes," in John M. Lundquist and Stephen R. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith, Vol. 1 (Salt Lake City: Desert Book, 1990), pp. 273-334. One noteworthy example from Qumran is the Copper Scroll (3Q15), which provides a list of temple treasures. As William Hamblin points out, "it is a clear example of an attempt to preserve an important sacred record by writing on copper/bronze (Heb. nechushah) plates and then hiding the document" ("Sacred Writing on Bronze Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean," FARMS Paper HAM-94, FARMS, Provo, Utah, 1994).The Book of Mormon speaks of the use of Cement by the ancient Americans Helaman 3:9-11 How about Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon? Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon Like I said before, you will be able to trot out some beleagered "expert" to refute my experts, so no one can know form "Expert testimony" who to believe here. If you really think about it, what's at stake, possibly your soul...
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.So, the test works like this...
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.