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To: loboinok
Again, I’m not playing go-fer. First I said “people on this thread” not “comments on this thread”, I’ve been debating this issue for a year and some my opponents here have made many comments throughout the year.

They have constantly made statements that the 10 year mandatory was not intended for LEO’s acting in the line of duty. Of course not, but it was intended to include LEO’s NOT acting in the line of duty and committing felonies even if they were in uniform at the time. In other words, bad cops, corrupt cops, cops abusing their authority.

Ramos and Compean were convicted of assault, this means the jury found there wasn’t sufficient justification for shooting to kill a fleeing suspect. What I have found is that juries almost always take the word of the cops if there is any, and I mean ANY evidence supporting them. Unfortunately in this incident, there was NONE, in fact R&C appeared to engage in a cover up. Compean testified he shot at OAD from the bottom of the levee well inside the vega. But one BP agent testified he saw Comp shooting from near the top of the levee and another picked up Comps expended shell casings on top of the levee. Both stories can’t be true.

So you can believe that two BP agents lied and perjured themselves to put a veteran fellow officer in jail or you can believe an officer got mad about being dumped into a smelly ditch and made a bad shooting decision, then engaged in a concerted effort to cover it up and lied about it on the stand.

Once serious doubt was cast on Comps story, it cast doubt on the “black shiny object” testimony and justification for the shoot. I personally (and the jury it appears) may have been able to get past a bad shoot done in the heat of the moment but I cannot excuse the cover up. What put it over the top for me was when Compean dragged other agents into his mess, particularly Ramos and Vasquez, putting their freedom and livelihood in jeopardy for his butt.

What disturbs me most about this, and the reason why I and others got involved in the discussions, was the obvious
opinion of many R&C supporters that this was no big deal because OAD was only a Mexican, a drug mule, an illegal and that Leo’s, in this case BP agents, should not be held accountable for their actions if the dead victim “ends up” being a member of one of these “hated” classes. This is a dangerous proposition and history is replete with examples of how an attitude like this quickly gets out of hand. Once you establish that a class of people can have their constitutional rights taken away simply because they are “hated” it is only a matter of defining whom is “hated” at the moment to move it from one group to another. This is how a police state and despotism begins. Hitler rose to power against the backdrop of economic crises but was able to acquire ultimate power on his hatred for the Jews and his ability to make them the scapegoat for misery in post WWI Germany.

Some people think this is an over the top generalization, but I don’t. You can see the same thing happened in Rwanda and currently in Darfur (to show 2 recent examples...there are dozens in the last 100 years)...the names and places change but the melody is the same.

The funny thing about this is all the reasons the R&C supporters claim why the shoot shouldn’t be a legal matter, that OAD was an illegal or drug mule, do not apply in this matter. Ramos nor Compean KNEW OAD was either of those things at the time of the shoot.

187 posted on 12/27/2007 10:42:08 AM PST by Bob J
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To: Bob J; loboinok; calcowgirl
So you can believe that two BP agents lied and perjured themselves to put a veteran fellow officer in jail or you can believe an officer got mad about being dumped into a smelly ditch and made a bad shooting decision, then engaged in a concerted effort to cover it up and lied about it on the stand.

Yes those two agents lied, it is a known fact that they are liars. Plus, unlike you, I have read the testimonies. I have written simulations and I have actually gone to Fabens and viewed the scenario for myself. I plan on going again within the next few days to make measurements of the ditch.

Calcowgirl, the ditch is a doozy. It might have been altered since Feb, 2005, but it is quite an obstacle.

I drove to Phoenix for this vacation and stopped in Fabens on my way here(I am now in Phx and I will soon be headed back home). I had hoped to enter Fabens in daylight, but got there after the sun had set so my camera with flash could not get a good representation of the area. I did however, travel the path from Fabens to the ditch, and the prosecutions tale is just that, a tale. The total distance from the light at Fabens(there are now two lights) was 4.1 miles. It took me 5 minutes and 26 seconds to traverse that distance driving at posted speed limits. The speed limits were 45 mph within a couple of blocks of the traffic light then 55 mph a block or two later. The speed limit dropped to 10 just before the infamous S curve and then went up to 15 mph at the S curve. There was no posted speed limit after that. No school signs. No deer crossings. No handicapped crossings, etc. The area on either side of the road was clear farming area(cotton from what I saw). I hit the dirt road going 55 mph and slowed to 40/45 with no problem. I could see I was leaving dust, but when I slowed to 35 for a moment, I could not see a trail(it was dark however). The dirt portion was .8 miles long and it took me one minute and 17 seconds to cover the .8 miles to the Sierra Delta. I could smell the ditch way before I got there even with my windows rolled up. I had no problem stopping at the ditch even though I was travelling at 40 mph at night. I did not slide into the ditch like Davila did.

At the ditch I was astounded by what I saw. It is no wonder that Juarez and Vasquez did not come to the aid of Compean and it is admirable that Ramos did. The ditch is at least twenty feet deep with sloping sides of at least 75 degrees. It was as I had first envisioned it except deeper. My simulations are based upon a wider and much shallower ditch, but I suspect that the time to traverse it will remain the same if not longer. The one thing that it vividly demonstrates is that Juarez is a liar. Compean could not have fallen in face first without going into the water(Compean was not wet) since the sides were so angled and falling from upright to a face down position in the ditch would have probably knocked him unconscious or senseless.

At the ditch, I could not see where the van's tires stopped, but there was an old tire at the presumed location.

It is pretty evident that Vasquez was at the ditch within seconds of Juarez and would have seen Compean shooting from the levee had Juarez seen him shooting. Vasquez did not see Compean shooting.

The cock and bull story about Ramos and Compean not KNOWING that Davila was an illegal or drug mule is preposterous. Nearly the whole station showed up for this "crystal pure" individual's apprehension. The boss even showed up with a camera. And the proof is in the pudding. He was illegal and he was transporting over 700 pounds of drugs.

189 posted on 12/27/2007 8:15:26 PM PST by AndrewC
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