Posted on 12/12/2007 6:04:34 AM PST by libstripper
What, in that book, or books, do you deem as evidence specifically linking Brigham Young to ordering those murders?
I am neither an idolator nor a murderer. What about you?
And, since you don’t know me and cannot have any idea of what I have done nor what I believe, you should stop bearing false witness against me.
The testimony of an eyewitness. In this case Young's adopted son John D. Lee along with all the accompanying court documents at Lee's trial. Lee testified that on September 11, 1857 he and several Mormon militiamen approached the Fancher party under a white flag. Lee told them he had negotiated a truce and would conduct them to safety if they surrendered their stock and supplies to the Indians. They agreed, and Lee proceeded to separate the children, women and men. According to Lee’s own testimony and confession, as well as the testimony of survivors, they began walking toward Cedar City, the very young children in a wagon, the women and men walking in single file, each man with a Mormon militiaman by his side. A brief synopsis of these court records goes something like this, "As the women and children disappeared over a rise, the Mormons started shooting. When it was over, all the emigrants, but for 17 of the children deemed to young to remember the slaughter, were dead. The Mormons stripped the bodies of clothing and jewelry and left them lightly covered with leaves and dirt, which soon blew away leaving the bodies to be eaten by wildlife. They placed the surviving children with Mormon families, including those of the militiamen who had taken part in the killing. Two years later, after a US government investigation, the children were removed and reunited with other family members." As previously stated when I referred to Lee's trial, he was in fact the only man ever charged in the massacre. He was convicted and shot by firing squad at Mountain Meadows on March 23, 1877. The facts of this event cannot be challenged, indeed the Mormon Church don't deny it either, unless you want to challenge official court documents.
To be unbiased in my reporting, the Mormon Church has for years blamed this event on 'renegade' church members and deny that Young ever had anything to do with this event, but they don't deny the event happening. However this is in direct contradiction to the eye witness accounts as recorded in Lee's trial. In fact there are many historians and descendants of the victims, who hold that the preponderance of evidence shows that Brigham Young must, at the very least, have had foreknowledge of the attack and that his vitriolic speeches and sermons inflamed his followers.
Hope this helps. You of course can choose to believe the official position of the LDS that Young didn't have anything to do with it and that his son Lee lied at his trial. That is up to you. I, however, choose to take at face value the testimony of Lee along with his confession. This confession along with the eye witness testimony at the time clearly points to Young's involvement. You can always buy the books of course -- I believe all these court documents and testimonies are in there.
I only mentioned this as you posted something about 'mainstreamers' murdering Joseph Smith as if all 'mainstreamers' are bloodthirsty villains. This account proves of course there were some bloodthirsty Mormons in this time period as well which shouldn't be overlooked. And that's a fair assessment even IF you take the LDS position it was 'renegade' Mormons. The renegades were still Mormons.
So, you now admit the falsity of your statement and publicy admit that there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that Brigham Young actually ordered the murders, as you previously claimed. The implication is that you lied.
Still, the WWJD stuff is idolatrous even if you, personally, don't do it.
I admitted no such thing and you know it. Are you so deceived that you CANNOT ADMIT that court documents and the CONFESSION of an adopted son of Brigham Young counts as EVIDENCE?????? Since when in the history of these United States does COURT DOCUMENTS REGARDING A TRIAL AND THE TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES not count as EVIDENCE? You don't have any clue do you how absurd you sound???!?!???
You did not cite one shred of evidence that Brigham Young ORDERED the murders, as you originally stated. Perhaps you are so blind in your hatred that you cannot understand that evidence is something more than mere citations by some of your own ilk or your own biased opinion. You have NO evidence.
I admitted no such thing and you know it. Are you so deceived that you CANNOT ADMIT that court documents and the CONFESSION of an adopted son of Brigham Young counts as EVIDENCE?????? Since when in the history of these United States does COURT DOCUMENTS REGARDING A TRIAL AND THE TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES not count as EVIDENCE? You don't have any clue do you how absurd you sound???!?!???
It was not the mainstream who murder Joseph Smith, anymore than God fearing white Christians accepted the KKK.
Joseph was Murder by a mob that just happens to attend the MS church.
As far as MMM Brigham Young was always a hands on if what you are accusing him of he would have been there. Since Brigham Young never did anything like that in his history why are you trying to take the words of the disgruntle, who are mostly made up of anti’s be they atheist, homosexuals who were excommunicate, and others of a humanist bend!
It was not I who suggested this, it was Old Mountain Man - scroll up.
Since Brigham Young never did anything like that in his history why are you trying to take the words of the disgruntle
I can only assume here that you too have a problem with official court documents.......boy oh boy........
So teenagers wearing WWJD bracelets are idolatrous heretics? I am sure most of them believe it is simply a mnemonic to remind them to act humanely toward other people. However, if you wish to judge them and call them names, I cannot stop you.
I am saddened, however, since that kind of obsession with legalism can turn young people off the Christian faith. The basis of Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If teenagers use a mnemonic to remind them of the behavioral standards of that relationahip, I have no problem with it. Nor do I believe that Jesus, in His infinite love and mercy, has a problem with it either.
You are right. The RC Church considers the Eastern Orthodox explanation of the Nicene Creed heretical. I wonder which version one must accept in order to be a “Christian”.
Yup, that's the practice that Moses asserted that God prohibited when he handed down the Ten Commandments.
I have absolutely no doubt there are people who are upset with arguments from the Ten Commandments. They'd rather we just all get along together and forget about that stuff.
So that you should not worry about the eventual disposition of my immortal soul, I will tell you that I do not now nor have I ever had any item of clothing, jewelry nor other accoutrement with the letters “WWJD” on it.
Rest easy.
“It would have been better if he had avoided the entire subject, and then we probably would not have seen this Huckabee affair unfold.”
He COULDN’T avoid it. It’s been the basis for most of the attacks on him by the southern ‘holier-than-thou’ Evangelicals. IMHO you’d never see Catholics acting in such a self righteous manner.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately."
-- Benjamin Franklin
You’ll be dismayed to learn that WWJD was started by a Congregational minister and is rarely used by Catholics. In fact, I just completed a search of the inventory of the ten largest online Catholic bookstores, and got no hits for WWJD.
With that, this conversation is at an end. With that last post you revealed yourself, and I will have nothing further to do with you.
Gee, OJ says he is innocent, it was in the civil trial. So, He is right? I think you give inordinate weight to things recorded in a court case. Clinton’s testimony is recorded in the Grand Jury, but we know he and she lie through their teeth. Evidence is in the eye of the beholder and the stature and truthfulness of the witness. The Lord has the only video tapes and you have apparently seen them with regard to the MMM. Is that right? It is not silly to suspect that people lie for various reasons. But, apparently people that hate mormons always tell the truth. Of course, no one was ever charged with the murders and Haun’s Mill or Carthage so we don’t even have their lies recorded. The preponderance of evidence is that BY did not order anyone murdered or he would have finished off the US Army in the mountains. He merely defeated them without killing or hurting any of them. It is true they got a bit hungry in the mountains after he chopped off their supplies.
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