Posted on 12/12/2007 6:04:34 AM PST by libstripper
Hijacker on the thread! LET’S ROLL!
I think debating religion on Free Republic is fine—many of us here are very, very interested in religious doctrine.
So I think it’s OK (and understandable) here to discuss whether Satan was Jesus’ brother—it doesn’t mean we are all going to discuss it when we all go precinct walking in October before the election.
This is a rhetorical question...Why did Romney feel he needed to answer questions regarding Mormonism, and then gave a speech mostly on liberty and history. I would dare say not a single person, promormon or antimormon, would deny Mr.Romney the right to run for president. Article 6 remains intact and safe. What Romney wanted was to allay the concerns of evangelicals and fundamentalist Christians who know 'a little' or 'a lot about' mormonism. Toward that end he created more questions than he answered. His remarks regarding "Jesus Christ was the savior of all mankind" is a statement meant to deceive who Romney really thinks about the Christians Jesus Christ. He used a familiar name with a different meaning. Jesus of Nazareth described in the Bible is not the same as the one described in the Book of Mormon. That was the point Huckabee was trying to make by asking a question and perhaps the journalists would do a little research and read what Morman teachings are on the subject of who Jesus Christ is and is not. Freepers are famous, on all points, to point out the deficiencies of 'facts'. Perhaps some enterprising journalist will actually go the the Book of Mormon and answer Huckabees question.
What does Mormonism teach about Jesus Christ?
Mormonism claims that it believes in the true, bublical Jesus Christ. One publicity booklet teaches, "Christ is our Redeemer and our savior Except for him, there would be no salvation and no redemption....". Statements like this have confused some Christians. For example, Frank Morley of Grace Presbyterian Church in Alberta, Canida, actually permits the Mormon Church to publish and promote a lecture by him in support of mormonism. In this booklet he says, "It has been said to me that Mormons don't believe in Jesus Christ! It is such superstitions and misunderstandings we have regarding them, you see, that need clearing up.
The following brief statements by Mormon leaders reveal the true beliefs of the Mormon Chruch concerning Christ. In essence the Mormon doctrine of Christ parallels those found in the world of the occult (hidden mystery religions).
Mormonism teaches Jesus Christ was a created being, not eternal God as the Bible clearly instructs (John 1:1,3: Titus 2:13), and that He was the first and foremost of subsequent billions of spirit children created through physical relations between the male and female earth gods. 'Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23) teaches that "Christ was the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father." James Talmage affirms in a standard Mormon church work, 'The Articles of Faith', "Among the spirit children of Elohim, the firstborn was and is Jehova, or Jesus Christ to whom all others are junior."
In Mormonism, Jesus is also seen as the brother of Satan. Since Satan was also a preexistent spirit creation of the male and female earth gods, Christ must therefore be considered his relations. In other words, Christ and the devil are "blood brothers". If the devil and his demons were all spirit children of the Mormon earth god "Elohim", it must follow that they too are Jesus' brothers, just as they are the brothers of all men. As J.H.Evans writes in "An American Prophet" (p.241) As for the devil and his fellow spirits, they are brothers to man and also to Jesus and sons and daughters to God in the same sense that we are." In essence the difference between Christ adn the devil in Mormonism is not one of kind, but a matter of degree.
Secondly Mormonism teaches that Jesus is a saved being. Because Jesus was only one more spirit offspring of the male and female earth gods (like Son of God...) He, too, had to earn His salvation: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God...He came to earth to work out His own salvation...After His resurrection, He gained all power in Heaven (McConkie, "Doctrinal New Testament Commentary",Vol.3,p238). And, 'by obedience' and devotion to the truth, He {Jesus} attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked Him as a God." This is why McConkei emphasizes, "Christ..is a saved being."
Third, in Mormon teaching, Jesus Christ is not unique, at least in nature. His divinity is not unique, for every exalted man will attain the same godhood that Christ now experiences. Neither is His incarnation unique, for Christ, like all men, is only an incarnated spirit man, who in a preexistent state was the offspring of suxual union between the male and female earth gods who made Him.
Mormons do refer to Christ as a "greater" being than other spirit children of the male and female earth gods, but only on this earth. Further, Christ is their senior only by priority and position, not nature or essence. In fact, as a spirit child of the earth gods, He is of the same exact nature as all men and all demons; this is one reason Mormons refer to Him as thier "elder brother". And so, Jesus is mans "spirit brother". We dwelt with him in the spirit world as members of that large society of eternal intelligences, which included our Heavenly Parents", (McConkie,"Mormon Doctrine, p. 169).
Christ is also not unique as Creator of this earth. Mormonism teaches that the prexisting spirits Adam and Joseph Smith, plus others helped him create it. (Mcconkie, "Mormon Doctrine" p.169). In Mormanism, Christ was unique in nature in only one way-by His physical birth. Rather than having a merely human father as the rest of us on this earth, His mother had physical sex with God (Elohim).
Fourth, as noted above, Mormons accept the birth of Jesus Christ through sexual intercourse between God (Elohim) adn Mary. Because "sexuality...is actually an attribute of God...God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone and the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus (Carlfred B.Broderick in, "Dialogue; A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, pp.100-101). In "Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith asserts, "Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man and 'that Man' was God. McConkie declares, "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father the sam way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers."
In other words, Mary was apparently a bigamist-married to both her husband, Joseph, and God Himself. Brigham Young confessed, "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not , that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary, the wife of Joseph, had another husband [that is, God].
Fifth, some Mormons have also taught that Jesus Christ was a plygamist haveing several wives, another unBiblical doctrine. The early Mormon apostle Orson Pratt claimed that Jeus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary and Martha (and others) were His wives, and that He had children. Thus Jesus was a "Polygamist" and one of many gods who earned His salvation, immortality, and godhood.
This is the Mormon Jesus Christ of whom Mormons teach. Pratt says Jesus was married to many honorable wives (Pratt, 'The Seer' Nov.1853, Vol 1, p172).
This is the Mormon "Jesus Christ". But biblically, all of this is false. Jeus Christ is God. He is eternal, and was therefore never created (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1"16-17; Isiah 9"6,Micah 5:2). Further, Jesus Christ is not the brother of the devil. He came to destroy the works of the devil (I John 3:8). He was not a man who earned his salvation; He was God who (through the incarnation) died on the cross for other men's salvation (1 Peter 2:24). He never married, nor was he born by sexual intercourse between a pagan god and the virgin Mary (John 1).
In fact not a single biblical Scripture can logically be advanced by Mormons in defense of their teaching on Jesus Chist.
Mormons are sinsere in their belief that they are Christians and believe in the Biblical Jesus Christ. Yet they preach another gospel, another Jesus Christ, (certainly not the Jesus of the the Bible, not Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, not the Alpha and Omege,not Jesus of Nazareth, (not Jerusalem), the virgin born only Begotten Son of God.
Mormans teach another Jesus. The information is easily obtained on the teachings of Mormon temple rituals (endowments) and other teachings on this subject.
I thank God (of the Bible) we live in a Constitutional Republic, not a theocracy, where Mitt Romney can believe what he wishes. As a fundamentalist Christian I recognize every persons right to their religious beliefs. However, I do believe that when Mr. Romney makes statements which he knows is deceptive (he is a Bishop in the Mormon Church, he is a temple Mormon, he is well versed on all of these matters discussed) in creating the impression that he believes in the same Jesus as the Biblical Jesus, that is wrong and should be discussed by people concerned with the truth.
I won't get into an ugly arguement with any Mormon on this thread. I quoted your own documents and your own prophets and apostles and publications. If you denounce these Mormon assertions that is fine. If you hold to these statements that is fine.
Evangelicals have this uneasiness regarding Mr. Romney. He seems like a wonderful person in his presentation to the public. He seems to be a devoted family man. On some points he has a conservative history and some more liberal, but that is the politics. But many evangelicals understand he took a blood oath in his the taking of his endowments to to place no authority above the leadership of the Mormon Church. Understanding this rigid requirement of the Temple Mormon begs the question as to the Oath to the Office of the Presidency to the fidelity to the Constitution of the United States. I will not go into any of the Mormon history regarding its prophets and apostles affirming its plans for the United States of America. That information is available to anyone who wishes to look. So who does President Romney have ultimate and penultimate devotion to...the Constitution or the Mormon Church Authorities to whom he has sworn a blood oath. These are weightier matters to consider than what Mr. Huckabee tangentially alluded to in his answer to a New York Times reporter.
Good post!
Oh true-stu, I guess you don’t believe the BOM. What else is new? I don’t believe everything you believe either. Is this so ground breaking that different religions believe different things? Did you just come to that realization? Are we to cease being Americans over some theological doctrine? When I came over from Methodism it was not because Methodism did not have a great history and great people. I found my mindset agreed with the Mormon view of things. These are belief systems not governing systems. The BOM says nothing about estate taxes. I really don’t care what you believe as long as you try to live a good life. Is it really helpful to slam me because I happen to believe the BOM is just what it says it is? This is politics not theology. You should be happy to have our support for conservative causes, our support adds to the accomplishment. I will apologize that Harry Reid is a Mormon. Will that help?
Oh gad....did you really write this?
Au Contraire. Mitt himself started this by trying to equate mormonism with traditional Christiantiy - we worship the same Christ deception. Many on this board expected evangelicals to just stand aside and allow this deception to go unchecked and say nothing. Had Romney been honest from the get-go and affimed along with his church leaders.....
"...No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak..."(Gordon B. Hinckley, Current President of the LDS, Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)
"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ that is worshipped by the Mormons.” (LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26).
....there would have been no evangelical outcry! Its the attempt to deceive that launched the outbursts! And many of you on this board continue to be snookered by the deception and instead of questioning Mitt's honesty you're attacking Huckabee for speaking the truth.
Why is it that Mormons practice this sort of deception? It is not Mormon-bashing to point out what a faith genuinely believes. Now Mitt has further degraded his position by saying Huckabee has gone too far - too far how exactly Mitt? By telling the TRUTH???? Unless you have something to hide you would not take offense at others merely reaffirming what it is exactly that you believe. This cover up and yelling bigot to hide what you truly believe sounds eerily like islam to me.
Ask yourself this: “Would Pope Benedict have done this?”
Again, you lost me. Why would I care what Pope Benedict says? He has no more authority than I do (to open another can of worms....)
And again, whether smart or relevant is a different question.
But it does appear to be the belief of LDS.
May I say, “VERY WELL DONE SIR!”
I thought you weren’t coming back until 2010...:-)
I don’t think that the weirdness is the issue for evangelicals, it’s more that the belief that Jesus and Satan are brothers is not *orthodox Christian doctrine.* There is much that is weird in orthodox Christianity, true.
This issue is interesting for Christians to debate. I don’t think it will have much bearing on their Presidential choice, really.
I think it is great that the public at large will learn more about Mormons, and maybe the public will learn for the first time that Mormons do hold some unorthodox views.
That said, I’m an evangelical Christian who might well vote for Romney despite his heresy. Right now, in my mind, he’s looking like the best choice (or maybe Giuliani).
“”Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains?” The Eldest Son said: “Here am I”; and then he added, “Send me.” But the second one, which was “Lucifer, Son of the Morning,” said, “Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth.””
Thank you for that quote.
Is that from the Book of Abraham?
Turns out Huckabee was correct.
No, they do not.
Which "founder" legislated for making private card gaming illegal at the federal level?
What's the "value voter" stand on distilleries, compared to the Founders?
Which Founder expressed the need for a moralizing Nanny State so much as Values Voter poster child The Huckster?
Interesting information—thank you for posting it.
They also believe that rewards and punishment in the after life are consonant with your behavior on earth. So, if you're a murderer you're punished terribly. If you're wonderful, you have wonderful rewards. In other words, there's no direct line between heaven and hell as some other religions argue; it's a graduated state of rewards or punishment.
I find all this talk about metaphysics and politics way out of line. We're ignoring the constitutional intent of our government, which is FAR more important. The president is severely limited in religious matters, but has a greater playing field when addressing constitutional issues.
Any LDS will explain the doctrine, but the point of Huckabee’s question was to remove the context of the doctrine in order to slime us. There is no other population for this earth. We are all children of God. We are all brothers and sisters. You are the sister of Hitler and I am his brother. So????
It is not Christ’s fault that Lucifer led a rebellion. There is nothing here to get exercised about. Christ refers to himself as the Firstborn. Lucifer is a son of the morning. (Early born). It is Biblical.
That’s just it—Satan is not Jesus’s opposite. “Opposite” implies at least a rough equality. Satan, the created being, has nowhere near the power or authority that the only begotten Son of God (by whom all things were created) has.
He asked as part of his response to a question from the reporter. I will say (again) you can debate on whether it was wise or relevant.
But the answer to the question is “yes” (see my earlier post).
It may not be smart to ask. It may not be relevant to the debate, but is it unfair to ask?
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