Huckabee questions Mormons' belief

Associated Press ^ | December 11, 2007 | LIBBY QUAID

[libstripper]

WASHINGTON - Republican presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks in an upcoming article, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

The article, to be published in Sunday's New York Times Magazine, says Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn't know much about it. His rival Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, is a member of the Mormon church, which is known officially as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.

A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee's question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.

[chuckles]

I'm most likely voting for Hunter if he lasts that long, but the problem with Mormonism is it changes depending on who and when you study it. They can't seem to settle on one doctrine. If you call them bigots, they say "Oh no, we fixed that in 1979". You can quote one "prophet" with one statement and get another "view" from another from another decade. I have more problems with Mitt coming from Mass and flipping on abortion and sodomy than his Mormonism. I think Mormons are a cult, but if his views are close to mine on several issues, abortion, homosexuality, gun rights, flag burning, border control, etc, I wouldn't hesitate to vote for him. If he came up with some off the wall crap like all Americans had to go to Utah and wear their holy underwear, I think we could get that filibustered. Having Marie Osmond values aren't that bad for America as long as they don't force me to belong to their cult. Even Muslims have values like modesty and such, they just murder you if you don't follow them. I have many problems with Catholic doctrine, but would gladly vote for a "good" Catholic if one would run. The problem is what is offered is Guliani or a Kennedy type Catholic. They should be excommunicated, but they still get to call themselves Catholic. I'm sure there are many Mormons that I would gladly support, They just aren't running.

The main concern I have with Mitt is his "judgment" must be lacking to belong to the LDS church in the first place. His judgment is one of those things that is hard to measure, sort of like Bush and " I looked into Putin's heart, and he's someone I can work with". If it took Mitt his whole life to figure out that abortion is murder, I have to wonder what his church was teaching all those years. I'm glad he flipped, but that was after 40 million babies are dead. A president needs good judgment BEFORE people die and America is damaged. Just like we need border control NOW, not after 20 million invaders break the economy. He was in favor of a sanctuary state until he ran for pres. ( just like Huck BTW)I'm a Baptist, but would not vote for Huck on a bet.

Right now, my order of preference is Hunter, Tancredo, Fred, Mit, and after that, probably 3rd party or wrist cutting. Needless to say, I'm not real happy with the field we are presented.

[Barney Gumble]

Agreed. From a theological viewpoint, I have some problems with Mormonism, but I don't have any problems with the way Romney seems to have lived his life. In the presidency, a devout Mormon is far more acceptable than a devout liberal.

Also agreed. I am also not sure how those quirky Mormon beliefs change his political stances on key issues. How will Mormons' belief that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri effect Romney's stance on abortion?

[SJackson]

What? You can't "turn down" the media volume on a Huckabee so that you don't have to read his words & listen to him & watch him? Somebody's holding you hostage to visit this Huckabee thread & other media venues? Shall we call FREEPER 911?

If he loses, yes, I can ignore him. Since he's running for President, I choose to listen to him because if he's elected, I'll have no choice.

Personally I hold elected officials to different standards than radio hosts, it's a silly comparison. If this becomes an issue, Huckabee would do better to simply explain the relevance, or irrelevance, of his beliefs to his ability to hold the office of President.

[VOA]

What I recollect is that Beck did give Huckabee a “shame on you”
for this sort of tactic.
And also said that Huckabees tactic ALMOST caused him to come out
with a public endorsement of Romney.

Beck probably does PRIVATELY support his co-religionist Romney,
but does have the good graces to not make his show a Romney-for-President
vehicle.
Beck is reasonable about how this would probably smoke his ratings
and ethical about staying above the fray until the candidate is
picked at the convention.

I do give Beck some credit for letting Huckabee have it for using
this tactic; his show may takes some hits for it.

If Huckabee gets the nomination, I won’t blame Utah voters if they let
the Demo candidate carry Utah. And millions of Utah voters of Mormon
faith sit on their thumbs on election day in Nov. 2008.
(Although being good souls, they’ll probably cast a Republican vote
anyway...I suspect Huckabee already has calculated that as well!)

[Colofornian]

People are tired of baptists. You know, carter, clinton and now huck.

For those who don't know OMM, he has mentioned he is LDS (correct me if I am wrong, OMM).

So, here we have a Mormon saying that "people are tired of Baptists."

Hmm...Since Christians are slammed daily in the MSM, I'm sure most folks will read a comment like this & gloss over it. (What? You mean, C, you think there's something of a religious putdown in this statement?)

What will be interesting is to watch those FREEPERS who are most vocal in their defense of "tolerance" "pass by on the other side of the thread road" when they view a comment like this...saying nothing. (Can you imagine anyone saying "people are tired of [insert people group here]" & getting no reaction? It seems only the religious right, Christians, Evangelicals, & certain Protestant groups are fair game for these kind of comments).

OMM, let me say this: I'm not tired of Mormons. The Mormons I know WELL are fascinating people. They are very nice people. They are easy to love. They are loving people. They are people of tremendous worth. But that doesn't mean they are people of truth. Or that they know the true God of love & truth.

[SJackson]

The LDS church beliefs are not relevant....How Mitt handles questions is relevant. Mitt has a habit of “tailoring” responses to put it nicely....Huck’s church practices full immersion baptism solely. If someone were to ask him about that, I would hope he would answer truthfully. If he doesn’t, it’s a matter of concern.

I agree, though it's not clear to me this was a response to a question, it appears Huckabee brought is up. We'll know this weekend. I like the way he handled the question at the end of the article far better.

Earlier this month in Iowa, Huckabee wouldn't say whether he thought Mormonism — rival Romney's religion — was a cult.

"I'm just not going to go off into evaluating other people's doctrines and faiths. I think that is absolutely not a role for a president," the former Arkansas governor said.

Reminiscent of GWB when the press tried to raise do Jews go to hell issue during his campaign for Governor. I'm running for Governor, not preacher, and the issue is put to rest.

[Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus]

I don’t recall that doctrine ever being canonized. That seems to be a big red herring to me. Blacks have always attended with everyone else. We are a geographic church similar to Catholics. You attend where you live, you don’t go shopping for wards. Even today, in the south there are Black protestant churches. We have never had anything like that. Did you know that Israelites never gave priesthood to anyone but Levites? We have Black bishops, stake presidents in white areas of the church. I don’t hear the attacks on Protestant divisions over race? A big reason we were tossed out of Missouri is because we were abolutionists.

Canonised or no, it was held by a number of well-known and influential early Mormon leaders, not least of which was Apostle Orson Pratt, who derived it from The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, though the Book of Mormon's use of the black skin motif to describe sinfulness on the part of the Lamanites (cf. I Nephi 5:21) probably didn't help matters either. Simply saying that there are black bishops now, doesn't change the fact that blacks were formally kept out of that position, specifically because they were viewed as spiritually secondary, until well into the 1970s. If Mormons were kicked out of Missouri for being abolitionists, then why were there Mormon slave owners in Utah (then Deseret) in the 1850s, including Apostle Charles Rich? Why did Brigham Young tell Horace Greeley that "We consider it of divine institution and not to be abolished until the curse pronounced on Ham shall have been removed from his descendants"? This all after being expelled from Missouri?

Other groups have had their problems with race relations, and I think that is a shame, since Christianity, in and of itself, from what the BIBLE teaches, should be a colour-blind creed. In the early churches, it was, too. I don't have time to look it up and cite it explicitly right now, but Justin Martyr even makes a point of telling his disputant that whereas before, there was division between tribe and ethnicity which led to strife and fighting, in Christ, those differences have disappeared and we can live with each other in peace and worship in unity.

It's a shame that Christianity was misused to justify slavery, especially in the American South. This is the misuse of the sacred to promote the profane, the misuse of the Bible to justify a profitable and "necessary" economic system.

[Colofornian]

If he loses, yes, I can ignore him. Since he's running for President, I choose to listen to him because if he's elected, I'll have no choice.

Good point. You've convinced me.

If this becomes an issue, Huckabee would do better to simply explain the relevance, or irrelevance, of his beliefs to his ability to hold the office of President.

Maybe. I just don't think it's "either-or."

[Spiff]

Oh dear. That's the way Muslims talk when you ask them about the Koran's instructions to kill infidels. Why doesn't she answer the question?

She did answer the question. First, she factually pointed out that those who wish to smear the LDS Church and its beliefs are the ones who usually bring up this misrepresentation. And then she went on to explain the Church's actual beliefs on the subject.

[roses of sharon]

What a sad, sick, turn this primary has turned out to be, I could not be more disappointed.

We have men serving in TWO WAR THEATERS, at this very moment, and religious leaders on the Right have made this contest about who is the more activist pro-lifer, who goes to church more, which man is vice-free, and who has the “correct” religion.

It all began with their threats of 3rd party, leaks of emails dissing candidates religious practices, threats to stay home or vote for the Dim.

No longer can values voters claim that they are ignored, dissed, or somehow the underdog in the GOP.

Huck is their creation, and their candidate.

[Colofornian]

I am criticising his actions, not his beliefs.

False dichotomy. Most folks' actions are based upon their beliefs. For example, in this specific case, it's exactly because you say you know Huckabee doesn't believe this (as an unbiased observer), that he even raised the question. Therefore, the question was apparently motivated by his belief--one opposite to the question.

Huckabee knew full well the reporter had nothing to teach him about Mormonism, but he just couldn’t resist getting the insult in...He can adhere to his beliefs without belittling the beliefs of others.

While you make a good case in framing it this way (doubtful indeed that the reporter could answer the question), why do you claim or assume that to simply repeat the actual belief of someone is in itself "insulting" or "belittling?"

I think this goes back to what I said in part in post #88: It's like the elephant in the living room. They're more upset over the person who pointed to the elephant than they are the person who brought the elephant into the living room in the firstplace. (These folks want to keep pretending in their fantasy political life that the MSM won't bring this same subject to the attention of voters in 2008!!! Go ahead. Dream away..we wouldn't want to abruptly wake you up from your fantasy life)...Anyway, this all reminds me of folks who get more upset over people holding signs of aborted babies than they are the people who aborted the baby or legally allowed it to take place (misdirected provocation).

[SusanDonim]

I think all should wait to see the article this Sunday before casting stones. After all, Huckabee has been accused of attacking Romney simply by stating that he (Huckabee) is a Christian. I have yet to hear a single attack on LDS from Huckabee. Please enlighten me.

Huckabee had this to say about the article (that has not come out yet)...

Huckabee Campaign Responds to AP/New York Times Report
December 11, 2007
LITTLE ROCK, AR – A report released tonight cites an upcoming article in the Sunday edition of The New York Times Magazine which quotes former Arkansas Governor and Presidential Candidate Mike Huckabee asking a question about the content of the Mormon faith. In fact, the full context of the exchange makes it clear that Governor Huckabee was illustrating his unwillingness to answer questions about Mormonism and to avoid addressing theological questions during this campaign.

“Governor Huckabee has said consistently that he believes this campaign should center on a discussion of the important issues confronting our nation,” said Senior Advisor, Dr. Charmaine Yoest, “and not focus on questions of religious belief. He wants to assure persons of all faith traditions of his firm commitment to religious tolerance and freedom of worship. Governor Huckabee believes that one of the great strengths of our nation lies in its diversity of thought, opinion and faith.”

[GOP_Lady]

Correct. From Glenn Beck's website:

"Glenn's not Christian?

DECEMBER 07, 2007

GLENN BECK PROGRAM

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

GLENN: ABC wanted me to do something on Good Morning America. It was my understanding, but I've been so busy, I haven't been involved in all the details, but it was my understanding that Diane was going to have a conversation with me on Mitt Romney and what was happening with Mitt Romney and what I thought he should say in the speech, but that would be too reasonable. That would be a reasonable conversation to have. Instead when I arrive, Richard Land is there and he is a Southern Baptist and I said, hello, Richard, how are you? And we talked for a few minutes and he was a very pleasant man. We get on the air and Diane Sawyer, I think the first question out of her mouth is, are Mormons Christian? And, of course, his answer is no, they're not which, you know, under two hours sleep I've got to tell you I had a hard time, you know, just smiling and letting it pass, especially since I only had two hours sleep because I had done a Christmas show the night before where I was talking about the real meaning of Christmas being with redemption and about not the birth of the baby, about the empty tomb and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. So I had a little hard -- it was very difficult for me to let that one pass, but I did.

The next question, with about 40 seconds to go, was about the deep doctrinal issues of Mormonism, and I've got to tell you something. I want you to put yourself in my shoes. Mormons, the doctrine is different. However, that's what attracted me to it. For me some of the things in traditional doctrine just doesn't work, but it works for millions of other people and that's great. Happens to work for millions of Mormons the other way. That's great. You know, I'm not going to preach to you, you don't have to preach to me. We'll pray for each other and we'll see each other on the other side hopefully.

Now, imagine, put yourself in this position. Let's say you are in Saudi Arabia where nobody's ever heard of the trinity. You're a Catholic. Nobody's ever heard of the trinity. What, the trinity? What, it's three in one, they're everywhere and nowhere. Jesus is on the cross but he's really God. So God has died but yet he didn't die and how does this -- imagine you've never heard this before. So you've never heard any kind of explanation. So it works. You know what I mean? You've never heard anybody say, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, you've got to slow down. She asked me two questions about deep doctrine issues and I had in my ear, 40 seconds. Oh, well, hang on. I've got 40 seconds. Let me explain this to you. You can't explain it in 40 seconds. You can't explain anything of deep philosophical viewpoint or deep theological viewpoint. It took me a year of real studying to be able to understand some of the stuff in all of different doctrines, which leads me to this. Nobody really cares. Nobody really cares.

Look, I've said this before. You have more Jello with stupid carrots in it than you've ever -- I don't even know who came up with Jello and carrots but somehow or another the Mormons did and they're like, "Here, somebody's died, here, have some Jello and carrots." That just makes it worse for me. If you want to know, ask a Mormon. If the media wants to know, why don't you call somebody who, like, actually does this for a living. I hear the Mormons have a university. That's weird. Maybe you should call somebody at the university and talk about their theological doctrine. Have the theological issues taken care of by those people. But see, that's not what it's about. It's about an agenda. It's about an agenda that I'm telling you is going to backfire on the media because if Mitt Romney would get the nomination, Christians will then rally around him and say, whoa, wait a minute, hang on, this looks like it's a persecution of religion because that's exactly what it is.

If I got on the air and I said to you, I'm going to vote for Mitt Romney and I'm going to vote for Mitt Romney because he's a Mormon. Well, wouldn't you think that I'm the dumbest man in America? And you know what, you'd have every right to think that because if I just voted for Mitt Romney because he was a Mormon, I would also have to vote for Harry Reid, and I got news for ya. I ain't ever voting for Harry Reid. I don't care if he is Jack Mormon himself."

[conservativegramma]

Like I said before, Mr. Huckabee’s question was not an HONEST question — that’s the whole point.

How is it not an honest question? This IS what mormon's believe in spite of..."We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all," said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. This is in direct contradiction to what has been taught by Mormon Apostles and leaders of the LDS - so she is either ignorant or deliberately lied to the Media. Consider the following quotes from the LDS:

"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ." [LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe; Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209].

"The importance of not accommodating temptation in the least degree is underlined by the Savior's example. Did not he recognize the danger when he was on the mountain with his fallen brother, Lucifer,..." [President Spencer W. Kimball; The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 163].

"Similarly Satan had contended for the subservience of Moses. Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah." [President Spencer W. Kimball; Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 87].

"Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus." [Apostle Joseph Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 207-208].

Furthermore the Mormon church leaders have issued official statements that the Christ of Mormonism (in SPITE of what this woman tried to misrepresent) is a different Christ than what non-Mormons worship:

"...No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak..."(Gordon B. Hinckley, Current President of the LDS, Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ that is worshipped by the Mormons.”(LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26).

Seems to me Huckabee had a fair question and the LDS has something to hide. Now personally, I don't care what a man believes in order to run for President, if he wants to believe this that's his business. What I do object to is trying to hide what you believe from the American people! And not only has this woman from the LDS done this -- so has Romney. In his supposed 'great religion speech' he did EXACTLY as this woman and tried to hide what the LDS truly believe. Had Romney said forthrightly that his beliefs are different, and had he specifically affirmed with his church's leaders this His Christ is a different Christ then it truly would have been a great religion speech.

BUT HE DIDN'T! Romney continued to misrepresent what his true beliefs are and by so doing willfully and purposefully engaged in an attempt to deceive the American people. This is nothing less than Clintonian. Saying anything, doing anything, HIDING anything in order to get elected! IF Romney is going to make a conscious choice to be deceptive to the American people over his religious beliefs, what else is he going to be deceptive about in the oval office if elected?!? Some of you people may have no problem with this but I do!

The problem isn't religion or Mormon bashing. Its telling the truth! Bottom line here is this: If Romney wins the nomination, do any of you honestly believe the Clinton machine won't run with this stuff? He'll never survive it. Our best choice to defeat Hillary will not be Romney, nor will it be Huckabee, nor will it be Giuliani. The best choice will be either Hunter or Tancredo - and they aren't leading -- so we are in serious trouble here.

[conservativegramma]

Oopps sorry, meant to post that to GOP_Lady.

[LadyNavyVet]

Obviously it is insulting, because Mormons are taking offense to the way the question is framed, just as I took offense at the statement that Catholics practice “ritual cannibalism.” Since transubstantiation says that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, in the strictest and most insulting sense, the statement is true. However, using the term “cannibalism” implies that we are hurting and dishonoring our Savior in the act of taking Communion, while nothing could be further from the truth.

I do not care to dig into this particular aspect of the Mormon faith. What is clear is that Huckabee was attempting to portray Mormonism in the worst possible light, and by rhetorically equating Jesus and the devil in the way he framed the question, to make Mormons seem to be worshipping the devil as Christ’s equal, which I do not believe to be the case.

Huckabee is running for President. It is incumbent upon one seeking that high office to treat those whom he seeks to lead with simple, human respect.

[dmz]

The ignorance evident here is that folks don’t understand that LDS believe that spirits were created in a pre-existent spirit world and that Jesus was the first so-called “created” spirit
______________

And you believe that Jesus was born a flesh mother who did not have intercourse. God just ‘poofed’ the fetus into Mary.

How is that less weird?

I’m not a Mormon, raised Christian, now firmly agnostic.

[LadyNavyVet]

“Governor Huckabee believes that one of the great strengths of our nation lies in its diversity of thought, opinion and faith.”

All evidence to the contrary.

[Old Mountain man]

“OMM, let me say this: I’m not tired of Mormons. The Mormons I know WELL are fascinating people. They are very nice people. They are easy to love. They are loving people. They are people of tremendous worth. But that doesn’t mean they are people of truth. Or that they know the true God of love & truth.”

Ditto except for carter, clinton and we will have to see about huckabee.

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

Off the cuff quotes are nice to have, but until the church canonizes it it is just an opinion. I don’t think you want to be responsible for everyone’s opinion in your church either. I don’t let myself get exercised over talks given years ago that were never canonized. Heck, the Cherokee indians had slaves and plantations. I, myself, would rather own a judge than a slave. I think everyone should own a judge. The Clintons seem to own quite a few as they are not pounding big rocks into small rocks despite using government agencies against their opponents like the IRS. I bet there were lots of protestants and catholics that owned slaves and thought it was ok. I think on a sheer wait of numbers the protestants and catholics were bigger into slavery. We were a tiny group back then.