Posted on 12/04/2007 10:42:17 PM PST by Kurt Evans
That's certain. Why do you believe that man is a eternal spirit with a physical body? God says:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
I’ve given enough scripture, but you insist on twisting it’s meaning.
Well, you've given me some and told me it supported your view. I don't see that it does. Interpretation must be based upon the totality of scripture upon a certain subject. In this case I believe the totality of scripture on the subject agrees with me. You see it as "twisting" because it challenges your interpretation, or the interpretation that's traditionally been taught.
I engaged you because you originally lamented how religion offers "nothing but departure from God's word." I'm agreeing with you by showing you that the concept of people burning eternally in hell forever is an invention of religion. The bible teaches that sinners burn in hell, but doesn't teach that man has eternal life apart from Christ. Eternal life, as scripture attests to, is a gift from God.
The notion that God created humans as eternal only to torment us forever is just strange and evil. Of course, as pointed out, that was Satans lie which explains it.
They sure are.
So if their bodies are gone, in what form do they now exist?
BUMP
Lord, preserve us from those who think they know more than You do!...
They're dust or in various forms of decomposition awaiting the resurrection:
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold, I pray, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, and I am dust and ash.
If they weren't Christians God will physically resurrect them and they will go through a judgment period:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Hell in this case is "hades" or the grave.
I guess what started me thinking about the false idea of an ever burning Hellfire (1955-1960) was the fact that all the ancient philosophers believed this also. They all taught the "Immortality of the Soul" and eternal punishment....or paradise. Plato, Socrates and Virgil were the writings that most influenced Dante and his "Divine Comedy". Something nagged at me about this being a true doctrine.
Dante Alighieri (1265-1321 A.D.) described his views of Hell, Purgatory and Paradise in vivid detail and had a great influence on the beliefs of his time. The ancient Greeks and Romans were all quite familiar with these concepts and Dante continued this thought into the middle ages.
You will not find the immortality of the soul taught in scripture.....in fact....just the opposite [Ezekiel 18:4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Why would the Holy Spirit inspire that to be written? Isn't the concept of an eternal soul wafting around the universe a traditional doctrine?
As Douglas has offered....there are many scriptures showing the soul to be mortal....none showing the soul as immortal. [Genesis 2:7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man does not have a soul. Man is a soul!
What are the wages of sin? [Romans 6:23] It says death... not ever burning life in some eternal fire. [Psalm 115:17] The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. [Psalm 6:5] For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Don't these scriptures plainly reveal the fact that the dead know nothing? Why would God put people in Hell....leaving them there for eternity....if they could not remember why they were being punished? Isn't that a silly concept?
The reason the dead know nothing is explained here: [John 5:28-29] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. This was a difficult concept for these disciples and that's why The Lord said "Marvel not". He knew that folks would find this hard to believe.... that everyone who had ever lived....and died....would come alive again. He did not say....some are already in Hell suffering eternal torture. He said "all that are in the graves"!
David understood this when he said: [Psalm 17:15] As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. David knew he would be resurrected to immortality....with a likeness of God. [Job also knew this: [Job 14:13-15] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
And of course....the Apostle speaks of the same thing: [1 Corinthians 15:51-52] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. He also states this concept is difficult to understand....it's a mystery!
How can people be resurrected to immortality if they are already floating around in some type of spirit....and more importantly.....why should they be if they are already immortal? Do you see how silly this becomes? The idea of an ever burning Hellfire was invented by the early church as a means of keeping the folks in line. It is not in scripture! Why in the world would God seek to burn someone forever? After a hundred years or so it would become boring. After a thousand years or so it would become silly. After a couple of trillion years or so.......it would be stupid!
There is a "Lake of Fire" spoken of in scripture where the second death will be experienced for those incorrigible sinners who refuse to accept the Lord and His ways. They will not have repented of their sins and will suffer eternal death as a punishment.
[1Th 5:23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[Hbr 4:12] For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Man is made in the image of God, triune in nature, having a body, soul, and spirit. It is the spirit alone that survives the grave.
This idea is not in full congruence with an oft repeated theme in the word:
That unbelieving Israel will suffer a greater punishment than Sodom, than Tyre, etc. How is this possible if the only punishment is death?
OH!!!!!!!!
There is a "spirit of man". For example:
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Paul contrasts the "spirit of man" with God's spirit. He equates man's spirit with the "spirit of the world". The physical world.
Most commentators would say that this "spirit of man" is the breath of life breathed into man which gives him rationality and intelligence...what separates us from animals. Animals have souls and bodies. Man has a spirit. But it exists only so far as our bodies and souls do.
Paul prays that the "spirit, soul and body" be preserved blameless. He can't be saying that they be "preserved" in a physical sense because as you just said the soul and the body aren't. Why are you separating out and teaching that the type of "spirit" is an eternal component of our being? Scripture doesn't say that.
Spirit: Strong's #4151. pneuma (pnyoo'-mah)a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
Soul: Strong's #5590. psuche (psoo-khay')breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only.
Spirit is defined as "Soul".....and Soul is defined as "Spirit.
As Genesis said....."Man became a living soul" and the breath he has......is his spirit.
Just where do you believe this spirit goes....if it doesn't die when the man dies?
I believe this is a prophecy against certain cities....not Israel herself: [Matthew 11:20-24] Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
I believe this is a prophecy against certain cities....not Israel herself: [Matthew 11:20-24] Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
I would disagree slightly in that I believe this can apply to the peoples of these cities. The setting is the general resurrection when all will face a time of judgment. Christ is saying that IF Sodom had seen the great miracles that he, Christ, was doing in Capernaum that they would have repented.
This verse actually verifies that the FINAL judgment of Sodom is yet future. It remains to be seen whether they will be subject to the second death, the lake of fire. What Christ is saying is that those of Sodom have a better chance at not being subject to the second death than those of Capernaum because they hadn't had the testimony of miracles that Christ performed. They will have more leniency, it will be more tolerable for them.
Very good point...Douglas. Thank you.
It’s become obvious that both of you are obfuscating.
The point isn’t which cities it was that were refered to; it’s that the word plainly says that the level of punishment is going to be different from one city to another.
This theology that you’ve created is at odds with God’s word in hundreds of places.
As for the word used for spirit, the same word is used for the Holy Spirit. You’re pulling a clinton here.
It is apparently beyond your understanding to see that there is no eternal Hellfire spoken in scripture. As this conversation began....that was the point of contention.
If you can explain to me what the words "Hades", "Gehenna" and "Tartarus" mean according to the Greek.....we'll go on.
That is obfuscation.
God’s word makes numerous declarations that are at odds with your invention. In what way does playing word games help that? It’s a diversion.
What exactly am I making obscure?
Where does it say anything about punishment here:
Mat 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom, in the day of judgment, than for thee.
This theology that you’ve created is at odds with God’s word in hundreds of places.
Prove it then. Show me.
As for the word used for spirit, the same word is used for the Holy Spirit.
It certainly is. It's also used in these places:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Does this means someones eternal spirit can be less than someone elses?
It's used here:
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Did John the Baptist have Elijah's eternal spirit dwelling in him?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Does the world have an eternal spirit?
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?
Is meekness an eternal spirit?
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
How does one quench, extinguish, put out, an eternal spirit?
I think you see my point. The word translated "spirit" doesn't always mean an "eternal spirit". It can and often does refer to the component of man that puts us above animals and it be used for good and bad. But there is never a specific reference that the spirit of man is eternal.
Paul understood this:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Co 15:43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
We have no spiritual body. Christians will have a spiritual body AFTER they are resurrected. Not before.
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