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To: wideawake
Illegal aliens crossing into the U.S. are no more "fully under US jurisdiction" than Patton's Third Army was "fully under German jurisdiction" when it crossed into Germany.

The United States and Mexico are not at war. Clearly you are substituting emotional arguments for logical ones.

The point being debated is whether or not the mere physical presence of a person or persons within the territorial limits of a country fulfills the requirements of the Jurisdiction Clause of the 14th Amendment, especially when the physical presence is against the wishes of sovereign government of the country in question.

While the U.S. and Germany were at war in 1945, that does not change the issue to any significant extent. Let us change Patton's Third Army in 1945 to Pershing's Mexican Expedition of 1916-17 when the U.S. was not at war with the Republic of Mexico and Pershing's men were on Mexican soil whether the Republic of Mexico liked it or not.

Would the men of Pershing's Expeditionary force be considered "under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Mexico" as a result of physically being on Mexican soil?

No. Such persons not considered to be "under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Mexico".

Under international law, if you visit Israel with your family, can your 18 year old American citizen, non-Israeli citizen son be drafted into the IDF because he is physically on Israeli soil?

No. Your son is not considered to be "under the jurisdiction of the State of Israel" for such matters as he is a foreign citizen.

If the U.S. institutes a military draft, can the the U.S., under international law, draft a Mexican illegal alien and then imprison him for draft evasion if he refuses induction into the U.S. Armed Forces?

No. Under international law, the U.S. can deport him to Mexico or imprison him for illegal entry into the U.S. but it cannot imprison him for draft evasion because that Mexican national who is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. resident alien (Green Card holder) is not considered, under international law, to be "under the jurisdiction of the United States" and it is therefore illegal, under international law, to draft him into the U.S. Armed Forces.

You can't have it both ways. If you have a class of people be they tourists, ambassadors, traveling merchants or merely illegal trespassers, you either have them "under the jurisdiction" of the country they are physically in or not.

"Jurisdiction thereof", in the originally intended context of the 14th Amendment, means the power, under international law, to send and legally enforce one of these:

If clauses are in the Constitution, they are there for a purpose and not merely to waste ink and paper.

If the "under the jurisdiction thereof" does not apply to a foreign trespasser who is illegally on U.S. soil and actively hiding from the U.S. Government, then who on Planet Earth does the "Jurisdiction Clause" apply to?

Who?

161 posted on 12/06/2007 7:47:22 AM PST by Polybius
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To: Polybius
Would the men of Pershing's Expeditionary force be considered "under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Mexico" as a result of physically being on Mexican soil?

Absolutely.

As a sovereign nation Mexico would certainly have asserted its right to arrest any of Pershing's men and subject them to the full authority of Mexico's justice system.

Under international law, if you visit Israel with your family, can your 18 year old American citizen, non-Israeli citizen son be drafted into the IDF because he is physically on Israeli soil?

Again, you confuse being under the jurisdiction of a state with citzenship in a state.

According to the 14A, to be a citizen (and thus subject to selective service, entitled to vote, etc.) you must be both under the jurisdiction of the US (as every single illegal immigrant obviously and naturally is) and born/naturalized in the US (as no illegal immigrant can be, by definition).

This is why illegal immigrants are not citizens - because they cannot meet one of the two criteria. This is also why their children born in the USA are citizens: because they are both under US jurisdiction and born in the US.

162 posted on 12/06/2007 7:56:25 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: Polybius
who on Planet Earth does the "Jurisdiction Clause" apply to?

Accredited diplomatic staff and, formerly, Native Americans who were under the jurisdiction of tribal government while on tribal reservations.

163 posted on 12/06/2007 7:58:27 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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To: Polybius
"Jurisdiction thereof", in the originally intended context of the 14th Amendment, means the power, under international law, to send and legally enforce one of these:

Then, according to this analysis, the framers of the 14A believed that no woman or minor child in America was under US jurisdiction.

In other words: your analysis is way, way, way off.

164 posted on 12/06/2007 8:03:20 AM PST by wideawake (Why is it that so many self-proclaimed "Constitutionalists" know so little about the Constitution?)
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