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To: keyd

Had Virginia ratified the amendment prior to December 1816 then they would have been the 13th state to do so and the necessary 2/3rds would have been reached. But in March 1819 there were 21 states. Virginia’s ratification meant nothing unless 2 more states ratified it as well. They didn’t.


15 posted on 11/30/2007 12:10:54 PM PST by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Non-Sequitur

Oops. Make that 3/4ths, not 2/3rds.


20 posted on 11/30/2007 12:15:02 PM PST by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Had Virginia ratified the amendment prior to December 1816 then they would have been the 13th state to do so and the necessary 2/3rds would have been reached. But in March 1819 there were 21 states. Virginia’s ratification meant nothing unless 2 more states ratified it as well. They didn’t.


Factual evidence of non-participation by the above mentioned four states concerning ratification of the 13th augure a strong precedent. All parties to the process did not consider these states as entitled to participate. We know that the states themselves did not issue any request(s) to register their opinion(s). President Monroe and Secretary of State John Quincy Adams clearly did not view them as entitled to be included and Congress did not contact either their governors or legislatures for their opinions and votes on the TONA.

Later historical evidence makes this argument rather weak as well. In January, 1994 the TONA Research Committee queried these four states. Each state, Louisiana, Illinois, Indiana and Mississippi returned certification reporting an absence of communication between their state and the Department of State regarding the TONA (XIII).

Also, on page 964 of the Checklist of U.S. Public Documents, published in 1911 by authority of the United States Government, is the following:

"The proposed 13th amendment was submitted to the States by the 11th Congress at its 2d session (May 1, 1810), and it was not until 1818 that it was ascertained that it had not been ratified. There were then 17 States, and the affirmative action of 13 were required. Twelve ratified promptly, four rejected, and Virginia was never heard from. In South Carolina the senate approved, and if the house had concurred the amendment would have been ratified. It was in fact for many years the popular belief that it had been ratified."

We note, however, that this statement contains an error. Only 3 states rejected: New York, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. South Carolina's House of Representatives tabled the resolution and, apparently, took no further action. Thus, Virginia's enactment, publication and subsequent transmission of the Revised Codes of the Laws of Virginia to the Secretary of State, both houses of Congress, the Library of Congress, and President Monroe more than fulfilled the 13th lawful affirmative action required for ratification.

This official statement that the 13th would have been ratified had South Carolina's House rendered an affirmative vote refutes the claim by some that, since the new states of Illinois, Indiana, Louisiana and Mississippi had been admitted to the Union, 16 votes rather than 13 were required.

21 posted on 11/30/2007 12:18:24 PM PST by keyd
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To: Non-Sequitur
Had Virginia ratified the amendment prior to December 1816 then they would have been the 13th state to do so and the necessary 2/3rds would have been reached. But in March 1819 there were 21 states. Virginia’s ratification meant nothing unless 2 more states ratified it as well. They didn’t.

Bingo, this is much more clear and concise than what I said. The original 13th failed to mee the requrements at the time the last state ratified.

22 posted on 11/30/2007 12:18:41 PM PST by mnehring (..one candidate did not display any moderateness or liberalism...Fred Thompson - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Corrected links:

Later historical evidence makes this argument rather weak as well. In January, 1994 the TONA Research Committee queried these four states. Each state, Louisiana, Illinois, Indiana and Mississippi returned certification reporting an absence of communication between their state and the Department of State regarding the TONA (XIII).

23 posted on 11/30/2007 12:20:48 PM PST by keyd
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