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To: AnotherUnixGeek; neverdem; Coleus; Mr. Silverback; NYer; hocndoc
"Cloning for reproduction would most likely be done by people who because of social circumstance, disease, or some other personal reason are unable to have children by normal means." Now you get the 'slippery slope' argument.

Aside from the secular humanist pleading which implies God messed up and some cannot have children by 'normal means' so we in science will fix His mess with our technology, the argument not to start this crap goes something like this. I am old enough to remember when IFV was being argued for on the same grounds you now employ to plead this cloning for reproduction. The groundwork had been laid with artificial insemination, which was first used on plants, then animals, and eventually on humans 'unable to have children by normal means.'

Artificial insemination lead inexorably to in vitro fertilization because what was the problem, the things being manipulated were no longer considered human beings yet so as commodities they could be viewed with utility as the primary goal, where the ovum (ova as it is practiced, actually, making 'extras with impunity) is united with sperm outside of the human body and then a selected few embryos are inserted into the woman's body for implantation. Because this process has stamped 'commodity' upon human embryos, they are no longer viewed as human beings at earliest age, which is of course what these 'to be implanted or stored' embryos are, very young human beings!

Playing God in this manner has lead to the dehumanization of humans at their earliest age in their developmental life, a developmental life which begins with conception and carries through to several years after birth.

How can you change your perspective, from viewing embryos as commodities, to seeing them for the very young humans they are? By opening your mind to the truth. The ovum is a cell, as a subunit of an organ from the female body. The sperm are cell subunits of an organ in the male body. The manipulation of these cells is not commoditizing a human being because these cells are not organisms. BUT the zygote conceived with the union of these two cells from organ subunits of two organisms are, you guessed it, ORGANISMS, human organisms! embryos from human conception are HUMAN ORGANISMS.

It is, at least at this late time in human History, still wrong in the minds of most Westerners to make commodities out of human beings. Now, in China and some other nations, that's not the case. And the way Islamic radicals view we Westerners, we are not Human beings worthy of preservation either. But do we really want to slide that far back down the ladder of civilization's climb from the slime?

If human beings of one class or culture can be viewed as merely less than human, where does the slide stop?... According to Darwin, it stops with the survival of the strongest, most fit ... after they have slaughtered off the competition or used them as commodities not worthy of protection for their humanity or ours, because humans have proven you cannot bring humans under total subjugation forever. Slaves eventually revolt if they survive under enslavement or are not rescued before revolting to kill their fat and lazy masters. Of course, embryos are not able to revolt, not consciously anyway, so there you have it! ... By making commodities out of our youngest human beings, we diminish ourselves immensely and perhaps irrevocably.

12 posted on 11/23/2007 6:22:16 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: WileyPink; wagglebee

ping


13 posted on 11/23/2007 6:24:14 PM PST by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: MHGinTN
Aside from the secular humanist pleading which implies God messed up and some cannot have children by 'normal means' so we in science will fix His mess with our technology

This reasoning can, of course, be applied to every birth defect and disease people suffer - all presumably were given to us by God, and therefore medicine has no business trying to cure them. I don't agree. If God objects to cloning or anything else man attempts, He'll tell us so. Directly, not through human interpreters.

the ovum (ova as it is practiced, actually, making 'extras with impunity) is united with sperm outside of the human body and then a selected few embryos are inserted into the woman's body for implantation.

This is the substance of your objection - that fertilized ova are discarded. I agree that this is ethically and morally wrong, though I keep in mind the enormous good IVF does for parents who could otherwise not have children. The fix for this is to improve the technology to the point where no excess embryos need to be created and discarded, not to end the technology.
14 posted on 11/23/2007 8:36:04 PM PST by AnotherUnixGeek
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