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Illegal Ron Paul Currency Seized [more deatils, re: the ongoing "Liberty Dollar" follies]
CNN.com ^ | 11/16/2007 | Staff

Posted on 11/16/2007 10:13:07 AM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle

EVANSVILLE, Indiana (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in a posting on the group's Web site.

The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal.

(Excerpt) Read more at politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: bogusbucks; counterfeiting; libertydollar; libertydollars; norfed; nothaus; paulestinians; playmoney; ronpaul
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To: Toddsterpatriot
The only problem is I never said anything about adding 180%. Try again?

"I don't know about the Feds, but I make it a point to not pay 180% or more of the value of a basic commodity." T.P.

Maybe I misqouted you then?

161 posted on 11/16/2007 6:33:50 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
"I don't know about the Feds, but I make it a point to not pay 180% or more of the value of a basic commodity." T.P.

See, 180% is 100% + 80%.

Maybe I misqouted you then?

You misunderstood, or are really bad at math.

162 posted on 11/16/2007 6:37:38 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
See, 180% is 100% + 80%.

"If you buy an ounce of silver (spot price a little below $15) for $28, you've over paid by about 86%."T.P.

According to your math, we underpaid 14% for that ounce of silver.

163 posted on 11/16/2007 6:52:13 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
According to your math, we underpaid 14% for that ounce of silver.

According to my math, you paid spot ($15) + 86% of spot (another $13) for a total of $28.

Now if you understood division, you could see that 28/15=1.8666, that is more than 180% of the value ($15) of the silver.

Glad I could help.

164 posted on 11/16/2007 6:56:21 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: Fan of Fiat; Mase; RockinRight; expat_panama; Petronski
If you want to see goldbug math in action, start at post #144.
165 posted on 11/16/2007 6:58:13 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
According to my math, you paid spot ($15) + 86% of spot (another $13) for a total of $28

Could you figure out my profit on Ebay today on a Ron Paul Silver Dollar? One went for 330. One went for 399. Thanks.

166 posted on 11/16/2007 7:13:36 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: RockinRight
the time to buy gold was 3-4 years ago

Oh really ?



167 posted on 11/16/2007 7:13:47 PM PST by jrsmc
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To: Toddsterpatriot
According to my math, you paid spot ($15) + 86% of spot (another $13) for a total of $28.

But according to your math, wouldn't that be 186 percent?

168 posted on 11/16/2007 7:22:57 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
But according to your math, wouldn't that be 186 percent?

100 + 86 is 186.

And that's not just my math, that's the way everyone, except maybe goldbugs, does math.

I'm so proud of you.

169 posted on 11/16/2007 7:28:58 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: RockinRight

With regard to depositing a Liberty Dollar in a bank account:

From 1933 to 1977 it was forbidden for any American to own gold bullion. Prior to this, it was thought that the Federal government had no power to make anything illegal. Hence, they needed a constitutional amendment to take away our alcohol, and they tried to control opium through a very high tariff. But, once the Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, allowed the Federal government to make gold illegal, it was just a matter of time before the Feds started making more things illegal.

In addition to gold being illegal, it was illegal to write contracts in gold, in any foreign currency, or any form of indexation. The government decided not only what was to be the “legal tender” of the country (which is its power), but what would be the only legal “unit of account” and “medium of exchange.” As to where these powers came from, I just quote Mao, “from the barrel of a gun.”

Fast foward a couple decades and, in 1977, thanks to the leadership of the late Jesse Helms, a U.S. Senator from North Carolina and a then rather young U.S. Congressman from Texas named Ron Paul, the law banning ownership of gold bullion by Americans was voided.

In conjunction with allowing us to own gold, the Helms-Paul act allowed us to index our financial agreements. Subsequently, Sunshine Mining issued bonds indexed to silver, and other private borrowers followed up with bonds linked to other commodities and to the U.S. CPI. There were, however, a number of nagging questions concerning the legality of these bonds. During the 1990s, the U.S. Treasury issued CPI-indexed bonds, and the legality of indexed bonds was no longer in doubt.

Soon after the Helms-Paul voiding of the bans on gold and indexation, banks were allowed by the Federal Reserve to offer customers accounts denominated in gold; which the Republic Bank of New York did. In the 1990s, banks were further authorized to offer accounts in foreign currencies and, today, a growing number of them do (but this is because of globalization, rather than because of concerns about inflation).

Thus it should be perfectly clear that it is legal for individuals, banks and others, to own Ron Paul silver coins, to exchange them with each other as they choose and for whatever consideration they agree, to do this either by physically transfering possession or by paper or electronic transfer of coins held in deposit accounts, and to arrange for deposit of coins in accounts managed by banks or for that matter any other company.

As to whether Ron Paul silver coins are a good deal, I will not comment.

But, having said what I did about Ron Paul silver coins being legal, we also know that, according to the U.S. Supreme Court, the Congress can regulate anything you do or fail to do, with the one exception of sodomy, because it effects interstate commerce. Even if you DON’T do anything, that affects interstate commerce, so the Congress can regulate that as well.

If you doubt me about this, just wait until Hillary is President and the Democrats have 60 votes in the U.S. Senate. I strongly recommend that everybody keep their passports in good order, and sew a good number of gold coins and precious metals into the lining of their overcoat.

The real fools are not people who buy silver at a high mark-up over bullion value. The real fools are those who have their life savings in U.S. Savings bonds and other non-indexed debt instruments.


170 posted on 11/16/2007 7:29:37 PM PST by Redmen4ever
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To: Redmen4ever
Fast foward a couple decades and, in 1977, thanks to the leadership of the late Jesse Helms

Jesse Helms is not late. LOL!

171 posted on 11/16/2007 7:33:32 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
And that's not just my math, that's the way everyone, except maybe goldbugs, does math.

I'm sorry if I bore you with my lack of intellect. But if you add 100 percent to something, is it not double? You make it sound like it is even steven.

172 posted on 11/16/2007 7:36:58 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
But if you add 100 percent to something, is it not double?

Yes. In this example, we added 86.6% (the premium I mentioned) to the spot price of silver to get the price of the Paul dollar. Doubling would have been $30, based on a spot of $15.

173 posted on 11/16/2007 7:46:21 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Yes. In this example, we added 86.6% (the premium I mentioned) to the spot price of silver to get the price of the Paul dollar. Doubling would have been $30, based on a spot of $15.

I don't mean to be ignorant, but this is one of your qoutes.

"That's the same as paying 180% of the value of the oil."T.P.

The problem I have is why do you switch back and forth?

174 posted on 11/16/2007 7:59:58 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779
"That's the same as paying 180% of the value of the oil."T.P.

180% of the value (spot price) is the same as the spot price plus an 80% premium.

The problem I have is why do you switch back and forth?

Most people understand that both statements mean the same thing (that you overpaid).

175 posted on 11/16/2007 8:04:04 PM PST by Toddsterpatriot (What came first, the bad math or the goldbuggery?)
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To: faq

One just sold on ebay for $550


176 posted on 11/16/2007 8:25:24 PM PST by rec
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Most people understand that both statements mean the same thing (that you overpaid).

See post 176 below.

177 posted on 11/16/2007 8:31:52 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: bjs1779; Toddsterpatriot
See post 176 below.

I meant above.

178 posted on 11/16/2007 8:34:00 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Most people understand that both statements mean the same thing (that you overpaid).

What you going to do about those stupid ebay people anyway? Another one went for 550.00.

179 posted on 11/16/2007 8:37:04 PM PST by bjs1779
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To: djf
I'd be fairly sure that coin did not stay in the cash drawer--someone redeemed it for face value and took it home. I know a guy who was given a one ounce uncirculated gold Eagle for an 'attaboy' bonus who did not realize what he had. Thankfully, he asked me, and I told him to at least get spot for an ounce of gold if he wanted to sell it, but I'd keep it as gold was going up. (Spot was about $300.00 then, he sold it, and I bet he is kicking himself now. I wish I had bought it, but he dicided to sell it later, in Denver.)

Another friend of mine worked security for a bingo parlor. Every week there would be a few United States Notes or Silver Certificates spent, usually obvious by the different color seals, and many had a rust stain from a paper clip on them. They dated back as far as pre WWII.

He was pretty sure they were being spent by an elderly lady there, one who remembered the bank collapses of the Depression and who had a 'stash' of money.

If the stuff hits the fan, economically, I figure Gold and Silver will retain their purchasing power to some extent. Maybe clad coinage will 'trade' at a discount, if not they can always be drilled out and used for washers or something (I know, bimetallic washers would likely promote cathodic corrosion, but this is a fairly dry climate).

180 posted on 11/16/2007 8:45:57 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly.)
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