Posted on 10/31/2007 11:21:56 AM PDT by truthandlife
But even here we're confused as to what is Caesar's and what--and often who--is the Lord's. Prime Example: We treat our neighbors, the pre-born, as an impersonal "political" "issue"...instead of treating them as our personal neighbors (undoubtedly, then, that's tied in to our personal, relational, moral, and theological commitments).
I would love to have a president who was also a perfect Christian (although I haven't yet met one)...
(tell me, specifically WHO is calling for one?...I think this is in part, a straw man...the other part is like asking your 4 kids, "What do you want for dinner?" & hearing 4 different responses & then concluding, "How am I going going to come up with a dinner that will appeal to all 4 kids?"...The "perfect" dinner...In reality, it's NOT really that the situation even calls for a "perfect dinner" & NONE of the 4 kids is vying for a truly "perfect" dinner...it's just that's the way the parent interprets the requests).
...but I don't look to any politician for spiritual guidance. I already gave that job to Christ.
Well, I started to think, "Yes, but..." BUT then realized, "Hey, I really need to fully affirm this."
I really think you are wise in having handed this over to Christ. (And I REALLY mean that)
My only caveat to all of this is to not distract us as voters from doing exactly that, but to add a consideration:
The Bible shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the the true Lord & who do not worship false gods/idols. The OT is replete w/ such examples. The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture. It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" just like the soup kitchen down the street. History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader holds, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.
Now, how does this "principle" then play out in a POTUS role? Well, if you watched "Jack Bauer" & "24" this past season, we had a POTUS who had to deal with the immediate threat of multiple dirty bombs. Now, you or I may not be looking for "spiritual guidance" from our POTUS, but believe me, in an era of open terrorism, I think you and I would both like to have a POTUS who is at least on decent prayer terms with the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Paul...and isn't afraid in a crisis to pray directly to Jesus...something LDS won't do.
So, Mormons do NOT believe that Satan is the SPECIFIC brother of our Lord, Jesus Christ?
They do. In fact, they also believe that Satan is YOUR elder brother.
They lump all angels and humans together as having been initially created as spirits in the alleged "pre-existence." They believe Christ was the first such created spirit, and then others like Satan followed (and then we followed).
A very fair and thoughtful response. Thank you.
"It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans, pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President, or other high office, but in one of two cases. First, if the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves. Another case is, if any persons of such descriptions should, notwithstanding their religion, acquire the confidence and esteem of the people of America by their good conduct and practice of virtue, they may be chosen. I leave it to gentlemen's candor to judge what probability there is of the people's choosing men of different sentiments from themselves.”
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
Clearly those conservatives who endorse Romney feel he qualifies under the second conditions advocated by one of the most heroic and greatest of our Founding Father's. Notwithstanding his religion but by good conduct and virtue.
Now, Be honest where did you get the quote? I want to know if you were the one who edited it or what the source was that lied and misrepresented Gov. Johnston's words.
“They do. In fact, they also believe that Satan is YOUR elder brother.”
See, I keep reading things like this, but I will be darned if I can get a Mormon to give (not just straight answer) an answer on this.
Saundra, God bless her first avoided the question with a red herring (a nice warm and fuzzy one) that was no answer, when I asked again, she never responded. When I asked again, she still never responded. Maybe she has to ask her “prophet” or maybe she’s just at work, I won’t try to read cowardice into her non-answer.
Have you, Colofornian, ever had one of them give a straight forward honest answer to you on this?
If you moved to a town that didn’t have an LDS church would you be comfortable joining another Protestant or Catholic church?
“They lump all angels and humans together as having been initially created as spirits in the alleged “pre-existence.” They believe Christ was the first such created spirit, and then others like Satan followed (and then we followed)”.
The scriptures as well as early Christian theologians did as well:
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Is_Lucifer_the_Brother_of_Jesus.pdf
Another good read for those seeking truth is:
http://www.fairwiki.org/Jesus_Christ_is_the_brother_of_Satan
Thanks for the opportunity to bring these things to light.
Here’s another great read re: the pre-mortal life:
http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap03.html
There’s some great stuff about the trinity as well, but scroll down about half way to view the pre-mortal text.
Thanks again for the opportunity. Have a great one.
Read the replies above for a straight forward reply. I presume this is what you are seeking.
“The scriptures as well as early Christian theologians did as well:”
Odd. I cannot find that in MY Bible.
What has the Mormon Church historically taught about Christianity?
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Mormon Church Condemns Christians "In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join." "I was answered by God that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” He again forbade me to join with any of them;..." "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" "For centuries men gathered and argued concerning the nature of Deity. Constantine assembled scholars of various factions at Nicaea in the year 325. After two months of bitter debate, they compromised on a definition which for generations has been the doctrinal statement among Christians concerning the Godhead." "I invite you to read that definition and compare it with the statement of the boy Joseph. He simply says that God stood before him and spoke to him. Joseph could see Him and could hear Him. He was in form like a man, a being of substance. Beside Him was the resurrected Lord, a separate being, whom He introduced as His Beloved Son and with whom Joseph also spoke." "I submit that in the short time of that remarkable vision Joseph learned more concerning Deity than all of the scholars and clerics of the past." "This knowledge of Deity, hidden from the world for centuries, was the first and great thing which God revealed to His chosen servant. And upon the reality and truth of this vision rests the validity of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" "And the angel of God said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people." "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." "Instead of having apostles, prophets, and other inspired men in the church now, receiving visions, dreams, revelations, ministry of angels and prophesies for the calling of officers, and for the government of the church--they have a wicked, corrupt, uninspired pope, or uninspired archbishops, bishops, clergymen, etc., who have a great variety of corrupt forms of godliness, but utterly deny the gift of revelation, and every other miraculous power which always characterized Christ's Church." "These manmade, powerless, hypocritical, false teachers, make merchandise of the people, by preaching for large salaries, amounting in many instances to tens of thousands of dollars annually. They and their deluded followers are reprobate, denouncing the faith once delivered to the Saints." "...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was." "Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. ... Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life." [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are... [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true."
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Yep.
It’s interesting that Romney refuses to talk about his religious upbringing and denies remembering his childhood church.
Apparently more than 4 1/2 hours.
A friend pointed out how politically self-righteous these "religious" leaders have become and how they resemble the Jewish leaders who resented Jesus. Like the haunty of old, their arrogance and self-appointed superiority will be the downfall of their professed intentions.
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 134
So you don't believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God? You believe He is one of millions of sons of God?
The ones I've followed quote the prophets of the church and the writings of Brigham Young. If those statements are accurately quoted and are in contradiction to the Scriptures, they are the falsehoods.
Assuming the Gospel was truth in the 1st century, it is the truth in the 21st century.
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