Mitt Romney is a Mormon and I am a Baptist: Get Over It!

North Star Writers Group ^ | October 29, 2007 | Herman Cain

[greyfoxx39]

I've seen the word "bigot" used a bit lately in these discussions. Overused, I should say.

That is a tactic borrowed from the Jesse Jacksons and Al Sharptons. Demonize the messenger and the message of the opposition in this politically correct atmosphere. An attempt at intimidation and censorship IMO.

[Elsie]

 

Many works of Peter weren't included in the New Testament yet Peter is the Rock upon which "I will build my Church".

 

 

Uh...  not quite right:

 

 

Is Peter the 'rock'?

 

---

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

 

NIV Matthew 8:14
 14.  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

 

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

 

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

 

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

 

---

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

---

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

---

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
 4.  and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

NIV Luke 6:48
 48.  He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

 

NIV Romans 9:33
 33.  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

 

 

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

---

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

---

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

 

NIV Numbers 20:8
 8.  "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
 4.  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
 15.  Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
 18.  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

 

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
 2.  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
 32.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
 47.  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
 2.  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 18:31
 31.  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV Psalms 18:46
 46.  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

 

NIV Psalms 19:14
 14.  May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 28:1

 

 1.  To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

 

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

 

NIV Psalms 42:9
 9.  I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

 

NIV Psalms 62:2
 2.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:6
 6.  He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:7
 7.  My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 71:3
 3.  Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

 

NIV Psalms 78:35
 35.  They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 89:26
 26.  He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

 

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1
 1.  Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 144:1
 1.  Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

 

NIV Isaiah 17:10
 10.  You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

 

NIV Isaiah 26:4
 4.  Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:29
29.  And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 44:8
 8.  Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 

 

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
 12.  O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

---

.....No other rock.............

 

And now you know the Biblical position!

[Colofornian]

Actually, if you think about it in the same vein as you mentioned, what if the question was: “How is your salvation going to fare if you intentionally have a few hundred Americans murdered just for the fun of it?” Baptists will of course say that it is not affected at all, they get a free pass.

Good point. (I had to read what you said a few times to try to figure out the context & what you were getting at...having done that, I think you have a good critique here)

(If my interpretation of what you said is correct, You are essentially saying: "For somebody who believes once saved, always saved, whether or not they order a few hundred to be murdered would have no bearing on their ultimate salvation?" Is that what you're saying?)

Anyway, if that's what you're saying...maybe a Baptist or a once-saved-always-saved person should defend that position in here. As for me, I actually see eye-to-eye with the LDS doctrinal position. I believe someone, once in a true intimate relationship with the real Jesus Christ, can still lose that relationship (even eternally)."

(I don't believe the "giving up" part is on His part...it's always man who divorces God...What's hard to figure out is that for some, it's a "separation" followed by reconciliation...and for others, it's a divorce).

[Elsie]

Setting aside the issue of plural marriages, that were LEGAL at the time and place where they occurred...

This is untrue. The SECOND marriage is known as BIGAMY and was (and is) ILLEGAL everywhere in the United States of America.

(If I am wrong, please show the correct data, as I do not wish to be posting incorrect stuff.)

[Sloth]

Freeper, please. Romney has zero credibility in claiming any leadership on the abortion issue.

[Colofornian]

Answering the question that SHOULD have been asked!!

OK. Which question?

[meandog]

Setting aside the issue of plural marriages, that were LEGAL at the time and place where they occurred, what was the age of marriage from 1830 to 1900? How rare was a 13 year old bride? Once you can accurately answer these questions, you can talk about the conduct of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Until then, clean out your own closet!

Legal? Maybe in Utah but they certainly weren't in most states of the 1830s. And, 13 is pedophilia in any definition; especially if the "husband' happens to be on the average of 40 years older (as Brigham Young was with one of his young "brides").

Smith was no prophet but a false one, and more like a mentally-deranged child sex offender. He was a earlier day David Koresh of Branch Davidian notoriety or Jim Jones of People's Temple infamy and, IMHO, would have been eventually exposed had he not suffered Navoo justice.

[Old Mountain man]

I’m surprised that there were not more errors considering the literacy of printers at that time. Of course, one of the things that changed in later editions is that verse numbers were added, as in the Bible, for ease of use. Chapter headings were added to later editions also.

Considering everything, I would say that as a standard work of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints, it has turned out pretty well. The basic philsosphy of proper belief and living are in there.

Bless you.

[Elsie]

Any of ‘em!!

Haven’t you noticed you NEVER get an answer to certain things; but, like politicians, they use YOUR question as a launching pad to expound THEIR viewpoint!

[Old Mountain man]

You are seriously history challenged. 13 was quite a common age for women to be married. Look it up. My guess is that you wouldn’t know a child molester if he was standing in front of you but you hate us so much you will say anything and do anything to harm us.

Won’t work.

Bless you, fellow conservative.

[Elsie]

151 years of error haunt you.

[Elsie]

Re-read the memo:

We didn’t tell you to say “Bless you” after EVERY reply.

It’ll get tedious and look SO fake!

—MormonDude(refreshing you memory)

[MHGinTN]

Just for giggles, why don’t you tell us how you justify Smith taking other men’s wives (11 if memory serves) while they were still married to other men. This should be quite amusing.

You have a blessed day now, yaheaah.

[meandog]

Considering everything, I would say that as a standard work of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints, it has turned out pretty well. The basic philsosphy of proper belief and living are in there.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way that LDS members live as they are truly impressively nice people, who live Godly lives, and present fine role models for others to emulate. There is however, IMHO, plenty wrong with what they believe as it not only defies 2000-year-old Biblical doctrine but scientific fact (I can give you plenty examples).

[Old Mountain man]

That’s pretty hard since I’m only 57. Do 1600 years of error haunt you?

Bless you, fellow conservative.

[Old Mountain man]

I just thought you folks need it.

[Old Mountain man]

Not my job to pass judgment on him. Actually, it’s not yours either.

Thanks for the blessing. Bless you, fellow conservative.

[Old Mountain man]

Actually, you are dead wrong about biblical doctrines. We do nothing that has no roots in the Bible and you well know it. Why, we don’t even use convoluted theology to get our doctrines.

Bless you fellow conservative.

[broncobilly]

The reason I asked is that you are telling other people what early Christians thought but if you haven’t read the church fathers you are not in a position to make a judgment, much less express it.

---

I gave you references replete with direct quotations.
Here is a typical one by Irenaeus:
“And how shall man pass into God if God had not been caused to pass into man . . . The Logos of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, . . . was made that which we are, in order that he might perfect us to be what he is.”
What I have told you is a fact about early Christians. If anyone mocks that idea today as unChristian, they do so in ignorance.

[Notary Sojac]

Sorry, not buying it.

You point to the LDS leadership flip flops on key doctrines (no argument there) and then appear to claim that Romney's flip flop on issues is inherent in his faith. I rather think it's inherent in his being a politician.

I don't think you would argue that Fred Thompson exemplified Mormon ideology when he flip flopped on CFR.