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To: Lucky Dog
Egads...you left out a whole bunch...

Most of us who recognize that the current system isn't working (and why) think vouchers may be the next step. Of course, there are a lot of folks smarter than me, and who knows what someone will think up? If education is as important as everyone says it is, it's worth doing right...don't you think?

The Soviet Model didn't work for government or business...it's not clear why some think it will best educate our children. Monopolies don't work; especially, government monopolies don't work. Public schools today are very much like the Soviet era stores...nothing much on the shelves, and what's there is old, unusable, or unwanted. If, as you say, the Soviets copied our system, it doesn't serve to validate it...it raises warning flags.

We recognize that choice is good for people, that they are most likely to act in their own self interest. Why does anyone advocate differently for the decisions people make about their children's education? Why do we "allow" teachers to send their children to private schools? Why is choice good for some, but not others?

Who here would entrust their children's education to a school board elected by the same electorate who kept sending Marion Berry back to office? Anyone? Buehler?

Not the guy in this article, fer sure...and not most parents who have a realistic choice. The problem is, most don't.

So...what conclusions do you draw about the fact that public school teachers are much more likely than the general population to send their children to private schools? I say they have drawn conclusions about the quality of the education they deliver, and they are damning.

I don't understand the idea that public schools are good enough for someone else's children, but not their own...it suggests to me educators aren't fit to judge what is appropriate for my child. It suggests that they are elitist in ways that make the segregationists of the '50s public minded by comparison.

Back to your post...you mentioned US dominance of the world economically led one to conclude the public school system did a "more than adequate" job of educating US children. Were you grading a history test, I think the red pencil (are those still used?) would come out. You would point out that the US economy had two major, major advantages going forward from 1946...it was in one piece, not bombed to rubble...and it was the freest economy in the world.

It isn't possible to conclude that education system was competent or responsible in any way, much less all...in a hurricane, even turkeys can fly...if one grants that being blown around is "flying." It's also quite a leap to conclude that the product the schools deliver is the same product delivered 60 years ago. Demonstrably it's not.

You then mention opportunity cost. Tell me, what is the opportunity cost of the $$$ that to large degree have been pi$$ed away on a dysfunctional system? What is the opportunity cost of the millions of students who graduated (or not) less than educated? What is the opportunity cost incurred in waiting for the next great theory to flop?

Your comment:

The first, and most obvious, misconnect is that the GI Bill applied only to mature adults who were self-motivated and self-selected to continue their education. Contrast this to parents (who may, or may not, be mature adults) making decisions for children who neither necessarily self-motivated (in general) nor self-selected (think truancy laws).

Yet, you propose that no choice is superior to that. No, let me correct that...if any alternative is less than perfect, it isn't acceptable as an alternative to this demonstrably flawed system.

When choice is possible, alternatives exist and are used. We can then compare the results of each method and draw conclusions about their effectiveness...and many other things besides. When it's apparent how important engaged and committed parents are to a child's well being, we'll create a concensus for parenting standards. Those who don't measure up face losing their children...because we won't be BSing anymore about why Johnny can't read.

You mention the GI Bill. One is totally free to select any school they can be admitted to. You might want to address the fact that America's public schools rank far down in terms of quality...but our system of universities and coilleges is regarded to be the best in the world. The difference, of course, is choice. Next:

Now, consider that the “payback” of investment for societal investment in the “public” education system for children is, at best, 12 years, vice 4 for the GI Bill. Additionally, consider that absent the “mature adult/self-motivation/self-selection” criteria for the “public” school system a potentially large percentage of the investment is non-productive in terms of adequate payback (true whether a voucher system or not). A voucher system may address some portion of this problem at an increased systemic cost, but any proof that it would adequately improve the payback of the current system is pure speculation.

Flawed analysis; false alternatives. You set up a logical maze where the $$$ spent under a voucher program do not pass your analysis of adequate return on investment. Why did you not employ the same analysis on public schools? If I apply your criteria to the public schools, I reach the same place I am now...believing we are pumping money into a dysfunctional system.

It's not a question of whether we're going to have a system of public schools...but whether we'll have publicly funded, private schools, freely chosen by parents...or a government monopoly, run for all intents and purposes by special interests, most notably the NEA.

If I tried to design the most flawed system for delivering education, I couldn't come close to the current system.

Next:

A much stronger argument could be made for returning to the model for “public” education that existed prior to the 1960’s/1970’s in this country. However, it is certainly possible to object to this assertion on the basis of a permanently “changed world,” i.e., more urban/less rural communities, computers, internet, iPod’s, cable TV, etc. Nonetheless, there is proof that the model worked where there is no proof for a pre-college voucher system.

We're told that we can't teach reading or math or science or anything else the same way we used to, because "the world has changed." Why, then, would returning to some earlier time and method work? What is the difference?

Society is different; leftists have made it so. Your earlier model worked because society's values worked. The public schools don't work anymore because those values are different. Thank a hippie. Imagine a 1940s teacher in today's classroom, trying to teach using 1940s methods. It's a question of whom he'd be in more trouble with...the principal, the parents, or the union.

Vouchers are a threat because no reasonable and informed person would choose to send their children to a union run, government monopoly school. Theories aside, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see what works and what doesn't.

90 posted on 10/23/2007 8:57:47 PM PDT by gogeo (Democrats want to support the troops by accusing them of war crimes.)
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To: gogeo; 2banana
You leave out a few things. …. Egads...you left out a whole bunch...

. No argument except as a generalization: … However, it is certainly possible to object to this assertion on the basis of a permanently “changed world,” … (from my previous post)

Teachers Unions became all powerful in the 1960s and put benefits/pay in front of teaching.

Some would argue with you about your dates. They would peg the time of the rise in NEA (teacher’s union) power to Jimmy Carter’s creation of a cabinet post for education. However, I don’t think that they would object to the proposition that the unions have disproportionate political power. The question is why…

I submit that this power is primarily due to trial lawyers and their ability to file frivolous lawsuits. A teacher earning $35K or $40K cannot afford to go to court and defend him/her self against charges… even if they win. Consequently, they must join an organization with the financial ability and “will” to provide them liability protection at a cost they can afford.

Add to the individual legal risk, that of school district risks. Senior administrators are hired by school boards (political entities) who are very sensitive to taxpayer complaints about the costs of expensive lawsuits. When school board members are in danger of not getting re-elected, they tend to fire administrators to shift voter attention. Therefore, administrators become paranoid and clamp down dictatorially on teachers in attempts to protect their own employment. The dictatorial policies of administrators drive teachers to seek protection from unions.

Ergo, as long as teachers and school districts face the potential of petty, but expensive lawsuits because “little Johnnie” or “little Susie” gets his or her feelings hurt, the NEA will have a built-in constituency of dues payers (power). Furthermore, the leaders of this organization will continue to push whatever agenda they want knowing that the rank and file can ill-afford to abandon the protection from trial lawyers or dictatorial administrators.

God was kicked out of the schools in the 1960s.

Again, some may quarrel with your dates. However, they would not necessarily quarrel with your assertion. Nonetheless, let us again examine the origin of the phenomena. Recall that the decisions to remove “references to the Christian Deity” initially came from courts, i.e., lawsuits, not from those elected by the people to run school districts (school boards).

PC crap was introduced as schools started to leave the 3 Rs…

PC crap, to use your term, was initially introduced by those who took offense on behalf of others’ hurt feelings. As a result you began to get the push to use “PC” wording like “physically challenged” instead of crippled, lame, handicapped, etc. Sensing the ability to control a debate by controlling its terms, feminists seized upon the concept and began insisting on ridiculous contortions of language such as chair “person” instead of chairman or fore “person” instead of foreman, etc.

While some people genuinely thought using these speech patterns was, perhaps, the “kind” or “correct” thing to do, a great many were cowered into using them. Schools, being populated by a preponderance of female instructors, tended have had a disproportionate number of feminists (note: not necessarily a disproportionate percentage compared to the population). Again, threats of expensive lawsuits for “sexist discrimination” made it easier and cheaper for administrators and school boards to insist on PC crap than pay the costs of refusing to do so, again, even if a legal victory vindicated the refusal.

Theories aside, it doesn't take a lot of intelligence to see what works and what doesn't.

You may be correct about what it takes to see what doesn’t work while it is in action. However, it does take a lot of intelligence come up with something to replace that which is currently working, albeit, not as well as it should, with something that would be guaranteed to be better. Everyone over the age of 15 has probably seen or studied the law on unintended consequences in action. (Think Title IX, or Prohibition for example.)

Additionally, human nature mitigates against change. As Thomas Jefferson noted in the Declaration of Independence: “… all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”

To gegeo: Thanks for your passionate dissertation in support of vouchers. However, I invite you to consider a few things:

I say they have drawn conclusions about the [current] quality of the[current] education they deliver, and they are damning.

Carefully examine Thomas Jefferson’s quote form the Declaration of Independence noted above. I would ask you to then to ponder whether or not the evils are still sufferable to the majority of voters who, in deed, have the power to change it. We have a school system that still sends about 60% to a college of some sort, and produces citizenry capable enough to keep our economy tops in the world. Our system continues to produce Nobel Prize winners (even Al Gore). (Whether, or not, that situation will last is an entirely different proposition.)

We can then compare the results of each method [vouchers versus the current system] and draw conclusions about their effectiveness...and many other things besides.

Unfortunately, once some bridges are crossed, it is impossible or too difficult/expensive go back. Therefore, trying things on the “wholesale” change basis for the purpose of comparing results is an inherently “high risk” proposition.
91 posted on 10/24/2007 6:00:26 AM PDT by Lucky Dog
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